home renovation

SomeTradesJack

Hello, all. Long-time lurker here. The wife & I just purchased an old house project, a Victorian from 1897. I've spent the last 2 weekends doing unplanned plumbing tasks. CI rad froze & split 2 weeks ago--it wasn't a problem til the thaw. Last weekend the supply pipes (conveniently routed through the garage!) also thawed. I guess that's what you get with -30 temps and tar paper insulation. Zipcode 82834.

So now I'm thinking that re-doing the heating system might be moving up on the priority list. System is a hodgepodge. Mostly hot water with radiators, some slant fin in a 1950s addition, some electric baseboard, etc. Plumber suggested replacing steel & iron pipe with copper. He also said I'd never get my $ out of a condensing boiler, that I should just keep with the 80% efficient Burnham units (2) until they poop out and then just replace.

Judging by pipe size, it might have been a steam system originally. Definitely coal-fired, but that monster is long gone. Other details: 4500 square feet, 3 floors (attic has no heat--yet)

What do you all think about re-piping an old house? PEX vs Cu? Flush & paint radiators, fit with new valves? Galvanized water lines have to go also, naturally. It would be opening up some walls, but that would help with re-wiring too. It's got some funky low-voltage relay system for light switches ...but that's another story.

This is going to be a long project, undertaken in stages. I'm looking forward to learning lots--already have with Dan's books. Thanks in advance.

Steamhead

Are the supply and return connections to the radiators both the same size?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I like the cast iron boilers better than Mod Cons. In my opinion Mod Cons are expensive, replacement parts are expensive and sometimes hard to get, they need yearly service and a lot of technicians can't work on them. In addition some manufacturers don't support them and replace them with new models and parts become unavailable after 15-20 years

On the other hand where you basically putting in a new system and can design it for a mod con they will give you amazing comfort and fuel savings. Many on this forum love them.

But I'm and old timer so I like CI.

But you can design a system for a mod con and use your existing boiler until it craps out as long as it's done correctly.

Most I think would use pex with manifolds due to the price of copper.


You can also check "find a contractor " on this site

Larry Weingarten

Hi, I looked up your zip code and it said: "ZIP code 82834 is located in northern Wyoming and covers an extremely large land area compared to other ZIP codes in the United States. It also has a slightly less than average population density." Are you able to find knowledgeable help? Regardless, what is the insulation and air sealing like in the home? I'd imagine this is a good time to improve those things and once that's done (or at least planned), you can do a better heat loss calculation to help size your new system. PEX will be a bit more freeze tolerant than copper as well as somewhat less expensive. Anyway, it sounds like an interesting project, bringing the home back up.

Yours, Larry

Zman

You likely have a gravity hot water system.
Can you post pictures?

SomeTradesJack

Thanks for the comments. It was at some point a gravity hot water system; the disconnected expansion tanks are in the floor joists. It is pumped now: 1 Taco and 1 massive Bell & Gossett. I'll post pics later--I'm traveling today & tomorrow.

Yes, I live in the middle of nowhere and have become a bit of a DIY guy by necessity. I'm worried about breaking something or getting in over my head with this, hence my appreciation for this board. I definitely will do some weatherization on the old house.

My main questions are:
1. How to recondition a 100+ year-old system? Piping? Radiators? Valves?
2. 1950s fin tube is not my fav. Is it reasonable to replace with used CI radiators if I size properly?
3. Any issues with adding a hot water loop to the attic for radiators up there? (wife wants to use it as a sewing room)

Thanks again.

Zman

This is all do-able.
You just need to make a plan.
I would start with a heat loss calc on the whole house so you understand how much heat needs to go where. With some jobs it makes sense to use the existing pipes, on others, repiping with pex or pex-al-pex is the way to go.
Ed makes good points on the modcon vs conventional boiler topic. Whatever you put in, make sure spare parts are available locally, it sounds like you are a "long way from Kansas".
You can mix and match radiators although I would not do that within a zone. You might consider a product like Runtal in places where space is tight.

Jamie Hall

For starters, I'll assume here that it was at one time a gravity hot water system -- not steam. As the approaches are very different.

On your question 2 above, can't say I blame you on the '50s fintube. Pretty horrible stuff. However, it certainly can be replaced with used -- or new, for that matter -- cast iron radiators, if sized properly, In fact, you may find that it is somewhat easier to manage the system if you do, as they cast iron radiators will be best served with water at the same temperature as the others in the house. So -- good move.

The only possible issue with adding a hot water loop in the attic (use radiators again!) is that you may have to raise the system operating pressure somewhat to make sure that you have positive pressure up there. Probably not much, though -- 15 psi static cold pressure gives you 33 feet of elevation and, if you arrange your piping so that you are pumping away from the expansion tank you shouldn't have a problem.

Now. Piping. For your domestic water, I'd be very much in favour of using PEX. Not only is it somewhat easier and quicker to assemble, but you can route it through places and in ways which would be very difficult to handle with copper. The only real downside to it is that the hot water lines will tend to sag where they run horizontally, but that can be minimized by frequent supports I would replace all the galvanized with the stuff (you'll be amazed at how much better the water pressure at your fixtures becomes!) and I would reroute the lines so that they were not in exterior walls -- or cold spaces like the garage! -- wherever possible. Very often all this can be done with only minimal wall opening. If you have any access above or below a run in a wall, the galvanized can be removed in sections (sawzalls are really handy) and the PEX snaked in behind it. A tip, from considerable experience: when you start pulling the galvanized down (or up) and cutting it to get it out, fasten -- very securely -- an electrician's snake to the other end so it is pulled along the same path as you go, then use that to snake in a PEX line. Believe me. I learned that one the hard way.

There is another advantage to PEX. No soldering. Soldering is wonderful, properly done, but your house is old enough that the wood is dry -- very dry -- and there are concealed spaces. The last thing you need is someone waving a soldering torch about and lighting up a mouse nest in some odd corner. Even with a dedicated fire watch on each and every joint -- someone who has no other job than douse a hot spot -- it's not a risk I'd willingly take.

Which brings us to the heating plumbing. I would not replace heating pipes which are iron and appear to be in good condition. I would flush them out quite thoroughly -- lots of water and a cleaner -- but I wouldn't replace them -- if they are iron. If they are steel or galvanized, however, they've got to go. PEX-Al-PEX is again, what I would use by choice. It -- or at least some brands -- are rated for use up to 180 F (see referenced paper::https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tn-52-guide-pex-high-temp.pdf#:~:text=appropriate design life calculations of crosslinked polyethylene (PEX),180°F for their tubing. Applications with such high-) which is about as high as you would go with hot water heat. For continuous duty (heating) at those temperatures, though, I would support it on any horizontal runs.

If in some places you have to use copper, I would not solder if I could possibly help it. ProPress fittings are a bit more expensive, but... no fire hazard.

Like the domestic water, while you are at it try to reroute piping so it isn't in outside walls or unheated spaces.

Boilers. Your plumber is right. Keep the Burhnams you have -- they're perfectly good boilers -- until they die, and then replace them with modern, but still conventional, boilers. I would strongly advise against the fancier mod/con boilers. You won't be able to use the condensing much in the old system, so the efficiency gain will be minimal, and they take a good deal of knowledgeable maintenance and servicing, which might be very hard for you to source in your location. Not worth it.

Since you are going to be doing some repiping, though, it would be a very good time to make sure that the system is piped according to best practice. There's a lot of good advice here on the Wall, but Caleffi has a whole series of publications and guidance which is well worth looking at. Contact @hot_rod if you can't find stuff. Best practice plumbing doesn't cost more than miserable work, but the gains in control and function are remarkable.

Low voltage relay controlled lights (and wall sockets?) was a very state of the art thing in the late '50s to mid '60s. It can work well. It can also be a pain in the neck when it doesn't work properly. What -- if anything -- are you planning to do with it and the wiring in general? I have some experience with it, and would be happy to comment.

JimP

Your plumbers suggestion sound good to me and it's the approach I would take. He may be bringing you a local hands on knowledge of what will work well and be dependable for you. Dependability is the key. The copper pipe will be dependable for keeping oxygen out of your heating system. If that's what the installer wants to use I'd let him use it. It's a superior product and you'll have a better job. Labor, workmanship and reliability is especially important for your job and location.