System 2000; other system or keep old?

DanLI

Hello all, 
I was wondering if it is worth my money to get an entire new system. We never have problems with our system and it is cleaned each year. Pressure in boiler is always good, heats the house great. Only issue is after second shower third person is having a warm shower. We stagger morning and night to account for this and it is not bad. But with 5 people (3 kids 14, 12 and 10) and sports sometimes make holding off on showers impossible.  

I want to know how long it would be to get a return on my investment (about). I will attach photos of my system. I live on Long Island, the past 2 years I have used 645 and 652 gallons of oil per year. We use a programmable thermostat for when we are not home 67 mornings 62 work day 67 5-10 pm 62 at night. 

November-January about 2.8 g/day January-March 3.3 gallons a day
March to June about 1.7 gallons a day June - November about 1.1 g/day
This oil use is based on two years of oil deliveries on or about the same dates. 

Any information would be greatly appreciated. I was looking at System 2000 EK1. 

Thank you, 
Dan

Jamie Hall

Nothing wrong with that heating system -- keep it. If you need more hot water, either look at a bigger indirect or a hybrid or a direct fired hot water heater.

pecmsg

For How Water raise the tank temperature and install a mixing valve.
Replacing that with another 86% eff unit is very little savings and almost "0" return on investment.

Going to a 90+% unit might save 10% of your fuel bill annually. Based off your oil #'s maybe $550 - 600 a year. That's what a 12 - 15 year for return on investment not including the extra repair costs for high efficiency.
Now that unit has a lot of miles on it so put money away for its replacement during the off season. Last thing you want is to have to get a replacement "This Week"

HVACNUT

See I respectively disagree with the above. It's not a must to replace but but a System 2000 EK-1 Frontier will definitely save on fuel consumption. Return on investment wouldn't be my deciding factor though. Peace of mind and cleanliness would. 
The right side of the (50+ year) boiler has the door to access the clean outs. I'm willing to bet the cover plates are being held on with retort cement. Same goes for the hood on top. Pop that right side cover off and take a peek. Pretty gross I bet.
That boiler also has a triple acting aquastat and will always maintain a temperature of probably 160° because of the water heater. The water heater is an Aquabooster, using the tankless coil in the boiler to heat the tank by recirculating the water. Not a very efficient design. And the tankless coil is probably scaled pretty good, inside and out, which would seriously diminish hot water recovery. The burner was upgraded at some point. There was once a low speed burner but the new burner couldn't mount to the plate. So a pedestal and more cement was used.
The piece of tubing holding the inspection door closed. The scorch marks that came from the top of the front plate and killed the Marran sticker. Signs of poor seals. Where is the circulator? Behind the boiler or between the boiler and water heater? 
You don't really get a return on investment with a new car, you get it for increased efficiency, function, and reliability. 

DanLI

The circulator is behind the boiler. Thanks for your perspective. I really appreciate everyone’s views on this decision.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@DanLI

I would budget for a new system. The EKs are highly regarded. The indirect may not be piped the best way which is why you could be hurting for hot water

EBEBRATT-Ed

Those old American Standard boiler are pretty good boilers though

DanLI

HVACNUT said:

See I respectively disagree with the above. It's not a must to replace but but a System 2000 EK-1 Frontier will definitely save on fuel consumption. Return on investment wouldn't be my deciding factor though. Peace of mind and cleanliness would. 
The right side of the (50+ year) boiler has the door to access the clean outs. I'm willing to bet the cover plates are being held on with retort cement. Same goes for the hood on top. Pop that right side cover off and take a peek. Pretty gross I bet.
That boiler also has a triple acting aquastat and will always maintain a temperature of probably 160° because of the water heater. The water heater is an Aquabooster, using the tankless coil in the boiler to heat the tank by recirculating the water. Not a very efficient design. And the tankless coil is probably scaled pretty good, inside and out, which would seriously diminish hot water recovery. The burner was upgraded at some point. There was once a low speed burner but the new burner couldn't mount to the plate. So a pedestal and more cement was used.
The piece of tubing holding the inspection door closed. The scorch marks that came from the top of the front plate and killed the Marran sticker. Signs of poor seals. Where is the circulator? Behind the boiler or between the boiler and water heater? 
You don't really get a return on investment with a new car, you get it for increased efficiency, function, and reliability. 

Well I looked in the side cover and yes pretty gross. Would you agree with the above statement about efficiency savings in dollars? These systems are pretty expensive and saving some money would be wonderful in the long term. Not the end all be all. I do not want to make a mistake as you can imagine; is the EK1 a good choice? it was the most expensive. I do appreciate efficiency as we have solar panels that we purchased around 6 years ago and they have been great. I guess my trepidation is the reliability off our old system has been so good and any issues have been rare and relatively simple inexpensive solutions. I guess to use your analogy it’s like your old car that always starts and gets you there. Thanks 

SuperTech

I agree with @HVACNUT completely.  I would budget for a replacement boiler. The Energy Kinetics EK-1 is my favorite oil fired boiler. When installed correctly with the burner tuned properly these boilers run very clean and efficient. I'm willing to bet that you would see significant savings on fuel oil compared to your current boiler. The triple aquastat and aquabooster are detrimental to efficiency on that old boiler.  I have never had a customer complain about running out of hot water with an EK boiler. I have had more customers rave about fuel savings with the EK boilers than any others. They work great with high mass cast iron radiators systems as well.  

HVACNUT

I won't talk dollars because prices fluctuate, but as far as consumption goes, you'll be hard pressed to find a better, more efficient oil fired boiler than the EK-1 Frontier. Except of course the EK Resolute. In the U.S. anyway.
It might be more but because they give you almost everything you need, and it goes together quicker, the installers labor costs should come down a bit. There are other great boilers out there. Buderus, Trio, QHT, to name a few. They are of the 3 pass cast iron design. Coupled with an indirect water heater with thermostatic mixing valve, boiler or outdoor reset, either will be more efficient than what you've got and might be more in the budget.
And if one is not already there, whatever your choice, it will need a stainless steel chimney liner. Because of the efficiency of the systems, the flue gas temperatures are much lower and will condense in an unlined exterior chimney and the terracotta or brick will quickly start to deteriorate, drop, and clog the chimney base.
A heat loss calculation should be done even though with an oil fired boiler, even the smallest is usually too big. But be sure to discuss your domestic hot water needs with the contractor as this could effect the water heater, and or boiler size. 
As long as the system is being maintained, then take your time and weigh it all out. No rush. 

DanLI

SuperTech said:

I agree with @HVACNUT completely.  I would budget for a replacement boiler. The Energy Kinetics EK-1 is my favorite oil fired boiler. When installed correctly with the burner tuned properly these boilers run very clean and efficient. I'm willing to bet that you would see significant savings on fuel oil compared to your current boiler. The triple aquastat and aquabooster are detrimental to efficiency on that old boiler.  I have never had a customer complain about running out of hot water with an EK boiler. I have had more customers rave about fuel savings with the EK boilers than any others. They work great with high mass cast iron radiators systems as well.  

Speaking about EK installing I was told I do not need the fresh air intake because my basement is large; is that true? Another thing I notice is that some installs have a heat trap leaving the tank going to house as shown in installing guide others do not. Are there things I need to ask the installation company that they are doing if I do go that route. I have often read if “installed correctly”from different posts; I just want to know what to look for or ask prior to avoid a bad installation. The company is an EK installer. I have limited heating install knowledge. Thank you 

Robert O'Brien

It's actually not an expense, the fuel savings with an EK would repay itself shortly and then provide years of dividends. The best ROI you can get unless you got into Gamestop on the ground floor!

Roger

Thank you for your post, @DanLI and for such positive comments from everyone about System 2000!

I would expect you to save up to 25% to 35% over your existing system with an upgrade to System 2000. You'd have nearly endless hot water, quiet operation, and lower fuel bills and it's certainly what I would recommend (unless your chimney is inadequate and then we'd recommend our Resolute RT with polypropylene venting).

Best,
Roger

DanLI

Roger said:

Thank you for your post, @DanLI and for such positive comments from everyone about System 2000! I would expect you to save up to 25% to 35% over your existing system with an upgrade to System 2000. You'd have nearly endless hot water, quiet operation, and lower fuel bills and it's certainly what I would recommend (unless your chimney is inadequate and then we'd recommend our Resolute RT with polypropylene venting). Best, Roger

Thank you Roger for your thoughts; it definitely helps having your activity here to help people with your system. 

I was wondering if as I asked prior in this thread, should the system 2000 always have outside air hook up as well as heat trap above water tank? I am sorry if these are ridiculous questions but I am just noticing different pictures having these things and others do not and was wondering if either effects function? Thank you again. 

Roger

You're welcome, @DanLI .
Many heating systems are successfully installed without outside air when the building is not under negative pressure. We recommend outside air for System 2000, and it is required on our sidewall vent and condensing boilers. In the long term, things like weatherization projects or new appliances including bathroom fans and range hoods can cause negative pressures in the home (if not present beforehand), and having outside air connected prevents potential issues from arising.
Our tanks have a heat trap built into them, although the piped heat trap is most reliable in the long term and we recommend its installation as well. Compared to no hot water tank heat trap, it can save about 15 to 20 gallons of oil per year.
Best,
Roger

EdTheHeaterMan

OMG, @DanLI That looks so familiar to me. Are you located in southern NJ?

I may have piped your electric HW to that tankless coil many years ago. I'm surprised that it has lasted that long. I believe you saved on operating cost back in the day when I did the changeover, but I knew that the capacity was restricted by the 1/2" piping from the boiler... But recovery with Electric was also somewhat limited.

Regarding the side cleanout doors; as long as the doors are sealed with something, (even retort cement) the efficiency of the old boiler is intact. And the aquastat control can be rewired as a cold start boiler. That is how I would have completed the conversion. I also gave instructions to the owner (at the time of the DHW conversion) to upgrade to an indirect tank for greater hot water recovery. But that would have been long forgotten by now.

Even if that is not my work, I believe it is time to change out the old AmStd and I would also recommend EK in your situation. The installing company for the area is reputable... (if I am correct about your location and me doing the DHW conversion)

Yours Truly,
Mr.Ed

DanLI

EdTheHeaterMan said:

OMG, @DanLI That looks so familiar to me. Are you located in southern NJ? I may have piped your electric HW to that tankless coil many years ago. I'm surprised that it has lasted that long. I believe you saved on operating cost back in the day when I did the changeover, but I knew that the capacity was restricted by the 1/2" piping from the boiler... But recovery with Electric was also somewhat limited. Regarding the side cleanout doors; as long as the doors are sealed with something, (even retort cement) the efficiency of the old boiler is intact. And the aquastat control can be rewired as a cold start boiler. That is how I would have completed the conversion. I also gave instructions to the owner (at the time of the DHW conversion) to upgrade to an indirect tank for greater hot water recovery. But that would have been long forgotten by now. Even if that is not my work, I believe it is time to change out the old AmStd and I would also recommend EK in your situation. The installing company for the area is reputable... (if I am correct about your location and me doing the DHW conversion) Yours Truly, Mr.Ed

Thank you for your suggestion; I am actually out on Long Island. I bet after you work on so many you probably have seen every combination at least once. 

Robert O'Brien

DanLI said:

Roger said:

Thank you for your post, @DanLI and for such positive comments from everyone about System 2000!

I would expect you to save up to 25% to 35% over your existing system with an upgrade to System 2000. You'd have nearly endless hot water, quiet operation, and lower fuel bills and it's certainly what I would recommend (unless your chimney is inadequate and then we'd recommend our Resolute RT with polypropylene venting).

Best,
Roger

Thank you Roger for your thoughts; it definitely helps having your activity here to help people with your system. 

I was wondering if as I asked prior in this thread, should the system 2000 always have outside air hook up as well as heat trap above water tank? I am sorry if these are ridiculous questions but I am just noticing different pictures having these things and others do not and was wondering if either effects function? Thank you again. 

I would strongly recommend using outside air, besides being more efficient, it's quieter and insurance against any future depressurization issues.