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Questions about my new boiler

Newengapt
Newengapt Member Posts: 3
edited February 2021 in THE MAIN WALL
Hi. I had a new gas hot water boiler system installed 2 weeks ago, and have some questions (on stuff I understand somewhat, probably not the important stuff). The boiler is a Burnham / US Boiler Company ESC5CNI-GS for baseboard heating.

It is direct vented through the wall of the basement near the boiler. There is a note instruction book, “horizontal runs must slope toward the boiler 1/4” per foot min. When using a condensate tee”. It is sloped a little downward toward the wall, not the boiler, but I don’t see a condensate tee, and it’s only about two feet of vent duct to the wall. Does the slope not matter in this case

The installation has a long 4” (about) air intake duct that goes about 20+ feet past 2 water heaters, a gas boiler, and a gas air furnace for the other units in the building. The instructions say, “pitch. horizontal runs 1/4” per foot down toward inlet terminal when possible, if not, slope down toward boiler. It’s not far from flat, and the end toward the outlet slopes slightly downward toward the outlet before a 90 degree up turn to the hole in the wall, and the side toward the boiler slopes toward the boiler slightly. OK?

It says to have supports for the duct 5 ft. Maximum apart. The biggest spacing is 5’ 3” and the strap doesn’t touch the vent but is about 1/2” away. I was going to tighten the support a bit until it contacts the duct. Good?, and OK being 3” beyond 5’?

The instructions call for the vent outlet and air intake to be at least 12” above the expected snow line. The air intake is 24” above grade, and the exhaust vent 27”. This is in Cambridge Massachusetts. Looking at the website recommended elsewhere on this forum, below, I see an average of 13” of snow at the max of the year in January. Going by that number this arrangement more or less conforms, but in reality there are times when we’ve had close to 2 feet of snow in one snowfall. I don’t think it drifts at the outlet location, and I haven’t had problems in the past, but the old system only had a vent and no air intake. Will we die horribly during the coming snow storm, or should I not worry because it’s the people downstairs who will die horribly? I suppose an air intake is more sensitive to being blocked by snow than an outward vent terminal. If the intake is blocked, will the system draw fresh air from the basement instead, and not produce carbon monoxide? Or, if it does, will that be safely vented outdoors?

(Cambridge average snow graph: http://www.city-data.com/city/Cambridge-Massachusetts.html )

They mislabelled the 2d floor and 3d floor zone water pipes. The installation is the same and this doesn’t matter?

If anyone made it through this,
THANK YOU for reading and any advice ( or reassurance)?

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,162
    No, it's not OK. It won't kill you but you will have a miscellaneous assortment of problems as time goes on.
    If the intake pipe gets blocked, it may simply not run at all, or run very poorly indeed. What is so hard about putting things together properly? Especially vent and air intake pipe? It's not as though the stuff was hard to work with. When the instructions say 1/4 inch per foot sloped towards the boiler, oddly enough that's exactly what they mean.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    edited February 2021
    I remember that in some cases on some products, you can slope away from the boiler in very short horizontal runs. This is because there is very little condensate able to form in that short run. In your case, I took a look at the OI manual and the only indication that this may be true is in figure 3B, Note 1 on page 46. That note may be a type-o or a cut and paste oversite from previous versions where this was the case. However, there are no other indications of the opposite pitch allowance. That said, the installer got it wrong.

    Did your installer get a municipal permit? If he did, there will be an inspection by the municipality. Bring up your concerns to him. If he did not get a permit, then I would call and ask the contractor to come back and get the venting situation resolved.

    Did you pay in full yet? If yes, then the only leverage you have is to ask him to resolve the issue, or perhaps the plumbing inspector can answer your questions... wink wink ;). There are fines involved in most cases when a boiler is installed without a permit.

    In an emergency, a replacement boiler can be installed without a permit as long as the contractor secures a permit application within a reasonable time frame after the emergency.

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,453
    The flue outlet pipe being short probably does not need the condensate tee. If the pipe was long it may collect condensate being short it shouldn't.

    With no condensate drain the flue should be low on the outlet end.

    Snow heights can be problimatic with any side wall vent and intake
    You have to keep them clear

    The heights are usually dictated by the height of the basement subfloor. Did they raise them as high as they could?

    Did they take out permits and get this inspected?? I have worked in Cambridge VERY strict
  • Newengapt
    Newengapt Member Posts: 3
    I thank you for your comments. I was asking because I'm not sure what is a real issue worth insisting it be redressed. I only mention what I see, and I have to trust them on most of the job, but I believe they are reputable.
    @Jamie Hall The vent and intake are both near the ceiling, so to go much higher they'd be cutting into the apartment above. The alternative would be some kind of snorkel like arrangement outside, I suppose. I don't know if I should insist on that when the previous boiler and the other two apartments don't have that, but they aren't modern ones that now require air intakes either. Maybe that's more likely to be blocked by snow.
    About the ducts, they say 1/4" per ft, "When using a condensate tee" so I don't know if that applies since I don't see the condensate tee (should I), and the air intake directions apparently can go either way, and at the end of the run before exiting it then turns straight up 90 degrees, a couple of feet to the ceiling before it turns and goes outdoors, so maybe you don't want it sloping down that way in this case?

    @EdTheHeaterMan The quote said they'd pull a permit, but I'm not aware of inspections. I haven't paid yet; I was sounding you out here before doing so. You mention emergencies, does that mean in an emergency they don't need an inspection, or it's delayed? With COVID19 issues, and the plumbers quick response for me, I suspect they didn't have time for Inspectional Services. Maybe I should ask the city how it works.

    @Edward Young "If you make an expensive repair and the same problem happens, What will you check next?" I don't understand you.

    @EBEBRATT-Ed Don't need condensate tee and the slope is correct. Very good to know, thank you.

    "The heights are usually dictated by the height of the basement subfloor. Did they raise them as high as they could?": Pretty much, within a few inches of the ceiling I think. The manual shows an optional "snorkel" exterior vent in which the pipe exits the building, turns 90degrees upward parallel to the wall for up to 7' max, attached to the wall by a brace, then it turns back down again creating an air outlet higher up off the ground. I'm don't know if I should insist on that when they're probably meeting the requirements, and the hot air will blow away any snow in any case. They show this for the vent, but it seems to me that the vent is blowing out hot air, and the air intake is more likely to be a problem in snow, and the intake a few inches closer to the ground (24") where it comes out than the vent (27"). I wonder if they could/should "snorkel" to raise the air intake?
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    edited February 2021
    Emergencies include no heat on a Friday because the boiler failed and the permit office is closed for MKL day which means that you can't get a permit application until Tuesday. And by the time the municipality actually issues the permit within 30 days your house will have frozen solid with a huge insurance claim to repair all the frozen pipes. Just to pick one "Emergency" situation.

    If the permit was acquired, then there will be an inspection required. That inspection is the reason for the permit.

    As far as the Tag Line "If you make an expensive repair and the same problem happens, What will you check next" I used to say that to the mechanics that worked for me.. Like when they would condemn an expensive motor or circuit board. Their answer might be "I'll check the fuse on the other control board." I would then say "Check that fuse first" and more than 70% of the time the "cheaper fix" solved the problem and saved lots of time.

    I thought it was an appropriate tagline since I answer a lot of electrical control queries that go something like this: "I replaced the Widget, then I replaced the 'Finigan Pin' and that did not work so I got a new 'Cronston Valve' and 'Do-Hickey'... but it still does the same thing." I would ask them if they adjusted the air setting? or some other simple thing, then they would say "NO". I would say "try that... it's free." Then I might get a THANKS THAT WAS IT.


    Respectfully Submitted
    Mr.Ed

    P S
    @EBEBRATT-Ed, I made mention of that reverse pitch, however, I looked over the entire OI manual and did not see an allowance for the "reverse pitch". Is that a steadfast rule with short vents, or must it be in the IO manual? Just Asking...
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • Newengapt
    Newengapt Member Posts: 3
    edited February 2021
    @EdTheHeaterMan Does one pays before the inspection? I probably need to not to be late; inspections are delayed now with COVID19 I believe. What if it is found faulty? Is the contractor then obliged to meet the inspector's requirements?

    I was looking at the same note in the manual as you about the drain pipe. In the figure I can see the pipe is inclined down toward the heater, and the figure also refers to the note. .There also is a "condensate drain tee" in the figure. According to @EBEBRATT-Ed without the tee it can/should slope the other way, toward the wall, you say it can be so in some systems with a short pipe, and the contractor did it that way, so overall it doesn't sound like something I need to complain about. I could ask the inspector perhaps.

    What about the air intake? In the manual it slopes to the wall, and goes straight through the wall. In my case it goes to the wall, goes up about 2 feet to near the ceiling, then goes out, so if it sloped toward the intake the water would pool there in the pipe. It's close to flat but slopes down slightly at each end. Is there any problem with a little water pooling in the pipe? I don't see much to keep some from blowing in. It should leak out or evaporate, and not be a problem? Yes? The manual gives the option to slope either way, but doesn't have the upward turn.

    Your tag line sounds like a good one to remember. Actually, I'm not familiar with the forum's format, and I thought 'Edward Young' was a different user from EdTheHeaterMan, and that line was his post. :)

    thanks again.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,162
    Let's not worry about the installation manual for a little bit and go back to basics.

    Condensate will form in the exhaust pipe. Moisture will accumulate in the intake pipe. Now. Where does it go? It has to drain out either one end or the other -- outside, or back to the boiler condensate collection. The pipes will need a consistent slope of about 1/4 inch per foot to drain reliably.

    From the way I read the description, the air intake pipe goes over to the wall and then up about 2 feet on on out the wall. Obviously that pipe must slope back to the boiler, because the water certainly isn't going to climb that 2 foot section and crawl out. You can fight city hall, but you can't fight Mother Nature. Doesn't work.

    It really doesn't make that much difference which way the exhaust slopes, provided it does slope. The problem which you may have on that is that if it slopes towards the wall and on out, it may be too low (it certainly reads as though it's too low), in which case it would have to go up... in which case it can't slope to the wall or it wouldn't drain.

    Someone might suggest a drain hole outside. No. It will freeze up in this climate.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,695
    Does one pays before the inspection? I probably need to not to be late; inspections are delayed now with COVID19 I believe. What if it is found faulty? Is the contractor then obliged to meet the inspector's requirements?


    Here in NJ it is this way. And this permit that I photographed should be in your window during the work being performed.


    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    LS123
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    @ethicalpaul... you can't compare NJ to Mass. They have more rules about HVAC than anyone. I think you have to sand on your head and sing Yankee Doodle before they will approve anything.

    Seriously, The process is:
    1. Contractor gets customer approval for the job.
    2. Contractor applies for a permit
    3. Code official reviews permit application (and usually finds a reason that it's incomplete)
    4. Once complete, the permit is priced and a request for payment is sent to the contractor
    5. Contractor Pays for the permit
    6. Work is allowed to commence.
    7. Work is completed
    a. partial or stage completion may require several rough inspection(s) Not needed in your situation)
    b. Final inspection is made and approved. (After singing Yankee Doodle)
    8. Contractor reviews system operation with the homeowner and final payment is made.

    Now that is the normal process. In some cases, the work may be started before permit application.

    Under these conditions, you probably will not make the final payment until the local inspector(s) sign off on the job.
    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,695
    edited February 2021
    Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan! That's the same process as in NJ :smile: (but you must know this, I see you're from down the shore!)

    I was just letting @Newengapt that at least in NJ (and you have verified in MA also) that the final payment isn't due until the work passes inspection.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    EdTheHeaterMan