Radiator vent exploded, no pitch, sludge

lbeachmike

Re: Gorton #4 or #5, I found the below guidance on the Supply House PDF on the product pages. This radiator is very close to the boiler, so it seems I should go with a #5?

No. 4 Gorton (G4S8)
Vapor Equalizing Valve
INSTALL on radiators in room in which thermostat is
located, and on all radiators that effect the thermostat.
1/8” connection
No. 5 Gorton (G5S8)
Vapor Equalizing Valve
INSTALL on radiators near the boiler and in warm rooms.
1/8” connection

SteamingatMohawk

"steamdoc" The OP stated in his first post, "I had a Varivalve Quickvent explode, and another vent on the same radiator saw a similar fate less than a year ago." Presumably, the other vent was also a Heat Timer. I submit it is somewhat unlikely that two of the same vent would fail in the same place.

That leads me to think there is a different cause.

ibeachmike I find your statement that adding the main vent made no difference is odd. That also seems unlikely, unless the fact you use Heat Timers which vent at a minimum of a #5 up to lots of venting, per the Gill/Pajek report means all your main venting is going through the radiator vents. Perhaps, you can check the settings on all the vents to see where they are set so the guys in this discussion can get a better feel for how the system is actually venting.

lbeachmike

SteamingatMohawk said:

"steamdoc" The OP stated in his first post, "I had a Varivalve Quickvent explode, and another vent on the same radiator saw a similar fate less than a year ago." Presumably, the other vent was also a Heat Timer. I submit it is somewhat unlikely that two of the same vent would fail in the same place.

That leads me to think there is a different cause.

ibeachmike I find your statement that adding the main vent made no difference is odd. That also seems unlikely, unless the fact you use Heat Timers which vent at a minimum of a #5 up to lots of venting, per the Gill/Pajek report means all your main venting is going through the radiator vents. Perhaps, you can check the settings on all the vents to see where they are set so the guys in this discussion can get a better feel for how the system is actually venting.

I mentioned that I installed a Barnes and Jones Big Mouth on the main, after asking here about the best options for main vents. That was for the second floor - not the first floor, the topic of this thread.

The previous vent that failed at the radiator was not a heat timer. But it was super-old. Probably decades old judging from the look of it.

There was also the lack of pitch on that radiator, now resolved.

I'm having the boiler serviced by a steam professional from HeatingHelp, so if there are any underlying issues, they should be identified and I'll share any findings. When I run the heat for this unit, it seems that most of the venting is done in one of bedrooms, based on the way things sound - as well as the location in question, though I currently have the inlet valve for this radiator turned way down.

Most of the other vents also appear very old. I'm not sure if old = problem with vents.

lbeachmike

lbeachmike said:

SteamingatMohawk said:

"steamdoc" The OP stated in his first post, "I had a Varivalve Quickvent explode, and another vent on the same radiator saw a similar fate less than a year ago." Presumably, the other vent was also a Heat Timer. I submit it is somewhat unlikely that two of the same vent would fail in the same place.

That leads me to think there is a different cause.

ibeachmike I find your statement that adding the main vent made no difference is odd. That also seems unlikely, unless the fact you use Heat Timers which vent at a minimum of a #5 up to lots of venting, per the Gill/Pajek report means all your main venting is going through the radiator vents. Perhaps, you can check the settings on all the vents to see where they are set so the guys in this discussion can get a better feel for how the system is actually venting.

I mentioned that I installed a Barnes and Jones Big Mouth on the main, after asking here about the best options for main vents. That was for the second floor - not the first floor, the topic of this thread.

The previous vent that failed at the radiator was not a heat timer. But it was super-old. Probably decades old judging from the look of it.

There was also the lack of pitch on that radiator, now resolved.

I'm having the boiler serviced by a steam professional from HeatingHelp, so if there are any underlying issues, they should be identified and I'll share any findings. When I run the heat for this unit, it seems that most of the venting is done in one of bedrooms, based on the way things sound - as well as the location in question, though I currently have the inlet valve for this radiator turned way down.

Most of the other vents also appear very old. I'm not sure if old = problem with vents.

By the way, to be clear, I agree with you. I am an engineer, and not a believer in coincidences - why do you think I posted here?

Jamie Hall

Did I read that you "have the inlet valve turned way down"? I hope not. Inlet valves for one pipe steam radiators must be either fully open or fully closed -- nothing in between. If you want to reduce the heat output from a radiator, use a slower vent.

lbeachmike

Jamie Hall said:

Did I read that you "have the inlet valve turned way down"? I hope not. Inlet valves for one pipe steam radiators must be either fully open or fully closed -- nothing in between. If you want to reduce the heat output from a radiator, use a slower vent.

I have it closed fully, but it seems to still allow some steam into the radiator. I closed it because of the vent issue - not to balance heating.

lbeachmike

Here is the previous vent when it failed at the same radiator. As you can see, it developed a crack in the side, and water leaked out on the floor.

kflory

It sounds like your inlet valve needs replaced and I'm extremely curious why that area is so very rusty. There should be very little moisture exiting the vent and the heat should keep the area dry... so why so much rust?

STEAM DOCTOR

The area is rusty because of the steam leaking . This is actually very interesting. I have seen many maid o mist air vents leak, but usually at the seam . Not with a crack like that. 

lbeachmike

It is a 100 year old house that was not properly cared for by the previous owner. I only own the house for seven years, so I don't know the history of what caused various issues.

Do you know where I can purchase a replacement cabinet? This one is pretty gruesome. But I need very specific dimensions.

ethicalpaul

Buy em and try em

lbeachmike

ethicalpaul said:

Buy em and try em

That response is totally getting past me ...

ethicalpaul

It means "it is impossible to know how your system will respond to any vent on any radiator until you put the vent on the radiator, so buy a few that seem about right and try them out"

I swear I was replying to a post that said "which size vent should I buy, #4 or #5?" but now I can't see that post so apologies for the confusion.

Ahh, I see now. I was on page 1 and didn't notice a page 2, and this was the last post:

How do I choose between a Gorton #4 or #5 for the radiator vent?

BobC

Easiest way out is to buy the Maid O Mist 5L that comes with 5 orifices so you can dial it in. Here it is on ebay with free shipping -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Maid-O-Mist-Kit-1-8-Radiator-Valve/191946710683?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=4351786bd00140f099a81c65c9e220c3&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=3&mehot=pf&sd=113930905710&itm=191946710683&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2047675&algv=SimPromoteOrganicWithFloorBidWebWithBBEV2&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851

Amazon lists a 5L but does not show the 5 orifices so I think whoever wrote that does not have a clue about what he's trying to sell, especially since it's in the automotive listings. Another employee with zero practical knowledge.

Bob

AdmiralYoda

I second the MoM valves. I'm not sure who copied who but those and Gorton's are very similar in venting capacity and model numbers. This year I switched from Ventrite adjustable to MoM and bought plenty of orifices.

I'm of the "vent the mains quick, and the radiators as quick as you can without causing issues" mantra, backed with some venting rate and volume calculations. It works for me and I get heat fast and evenly.

Is it possible that after years of being pitched incorrectly, the radiator built up some gunk and potentially with a failing inlet valve it was a recipe for disaster? I don't have experience with convection radiators, but should that vent be extended higher? Seems like a perfect place for water to settle and cause the vent to corrode and fail.

Are you adding a lot of makeup water? If you are leaking enough steam to cause things to rust and paint to fall off....that's probably a lot of water. I had a leaky radiator that leaked through the top of a push nipple. Just a bit of a hiss, nothing major and maybe a drop of water every now and then.

I was adding makeup water once or twice weekly and was convinced my boiler was leaking steam above the water line. Fixed the radiator....now add water once a month or so. A little leak lets out more water than you'd think. A big leak that leaves a little water on the floor is like a firehose.

lbeachmike

AdmiralYoda said:

I second the MoM valves. I'm not sure who copied who but those and Gorton's are very similar in venting capacity and model numbers. This year I switched from Ventrite adjustable to MoM and bought plenty of orifices.

I'm of the "vent the mains quick, and the radiators as quick as you can without causing issues" mantra, backed with some venting rate and volume calculations. It works for me and I get heat fast and evenly.

Is it possible that after years of being pitched incorrectly, the radiator built up some gunk and potentially with a failing inlet valve it was a recipe for disaster? I don't have experience with convection radiators, but should that vent be extended higher? Seems like a perfect place for water to settle and cause the vent to corrode and fail.

Are you adding a lot of makeup water? If you are leaking enough steam to cause things to rust and paint to fall off....that's probably a lot of water. I had a leaky radiator that leaked through the top of a push nipple. Just a bit of a hiss, nothing major and maybe a drop of water every now and then.

I was adding makeup water once or twice weekly and was convinced my boiler was leaking steam above the water line. Fixed the radiator....now add water once a month or so. A little leak lets out more water than you'd think. A big leak that leaves a little water on the floor is like a firehose.

The rust was there since before I own the house. We are by the ocean, so everything rusts here.

I have MoM vents with the 5 orifices, but I thought they are considered to be very low quality? Varivent is also adjustable.

I can extend the height of the vent. That sounds like a good idea, though I'm not clear if it is needed after adding pitch to the radiator. Also, the height is already slightly extended from its previous height by the addition of the reducers.

I had originally asked here if the radiator needs to be cleaned out or replaced, but nobody has weighed in on that.

BobC

Jacobus (now Maid O Mist) had the original patent on that style of air vent. I'm not a pro so I deal with mainly just my house but the maid o mist vents have been on my system for over 6 years and have never been a problem.

The Gortons seem to be built to a higher standard but they lack adjustability so can be a little expensive to initially set up a house with.. Heatimer varivent are very hard to adjust at the low end of their range and mostly much to fast at the high end of their range - most find venting the steam mains fast and the radiators slowly the best path to success.

Bob

ethicalpaul

Jacobus is still the company that makes the Maid O Mist vents. I find them to be perfectly capable. There are knockoffs that I would not use, get the real ones from supplyhouse.com or other trusted source. Do not buy vents from big box stores, they are always knockoffs in my experience.

There are stories of every manufacturer's vents failing. Even Gorton!

I had originally asked here if the radiator needs to be cleaned out or replaced, but nobody has weighed in on that.

Normally, steam radiators never ever need to be cleaned out because normally, only steam and water are in them. But if the bad piping of a system has caused boiler water to surge into a radiator for years, then yes, I could see a radiator benefitting from getting sprayed out. But the bigger issue is finding and fixing the reason that boiler water may be getting pushed into the system.