Decision time for new gas fired boiler / indirect.

PerryHolzman

@Skyline:

My information is that the heat exchanges that Viessmann still uses are made from 316T (Edit & Update: as per the post below: this is only partially true. The 222F, and current Vitodens 100 & 200 do not have the Titanium added, but the Vitocrossal 300 CU3A does : See post below) .

Edited: Other than the material change to eliminate the Titanium - we share the exact same design HX; but I have a domed shaped burner mounted at the front without refractory at the rear plate instead of your cylindrical burner with the refractory plate.

Edited: The Viessmann literature for your boiler also indicates that the domestic hot water tank is a ferritic stainless steel with Titanium that is otherwise similar to 304. From the flyer: "Viessmann-made titanium-infused stainless steel DHW storage tank (26 USG)".

You can upgrade the surge protection and UPS as needed.

As for the life of the fans and control boards.... I'm not sure what to say. I'd hope that they have improved things. It really would not have cost that much to build a fan and circuit boards with expected lives in the 50 year range (or at least 25 or 30 years).

If I were to do it over again - and knowing what I know now. I would have stocked up on the more expensive parts up front while the boiler was in production and they were reasonably priced. Somehow it seems that for all Boiler Mfr's that the price for a lot of parts doubles or more after the boiler goes out of production. I'd love to see how the new fans are built. Perhaps Viessmann has taken care of the issues for my generation, and perhaps not.

I wish you well with this,

Perry

PerryHolzman

I need to correct my above post (for anyone who has read it).

I just looked at the Viessmann Technical Data Manual for the 222F; and you are correct in that the heat exchanger does not have the Titanium added that the older units did.

Interesting as the newer Vitocrossal 300 CU3A does have 316T for its heat exchanger (as did my 1st generation Vitodens 200).

My apologies - I stand corrected. I will edit the post above.

I really don't know what to say. That was the one premium feature I saw in the Viessmann products: A heat exchanger that should have an exceptionally long life - longer than anything else on the boiler.

If anyone is concerned on this issue for their Viessmann condensing Boilers: Download the Technical Data Manual for your boiler model. It identifies the metal the heat exchanger is made of (and if it has Titanium or not). It does appear that the current Vitodens 100 and 200 does not have the Titanium added. I'm not sure when they changed that.

Perry

GW

Perry, you recall what those boilers cost back then? But thanks- i didn't know that T was in the original 200 and in the new 300

GW

Perry seems like all the Viessmann’s have the same metal for HX see top right. 

Jamie Hall

Quite true, @MaxMercy . Switching power supplies are indeed much cheaper and lighter and smaller -- which is why they are popular. The two stages you mention (conversion to DC and then to 15khz or more) are very fragile with regard to power surges, however. The subsequent stages, to convert that 15 khz signal back to DC, must be very carefully designed and shielded, however, for high fidelity sound use -- otherwise there are a fascinating set of intermodulation distortions (there's a particularly bad one between the common 44khz digital music services and the switching frequencies).

PerryHolzman

@ GW

Well - it seems that Viessmann has put out conflicting information - and it seems that things have been changing in regards to the 222 F. I'm not sure what alloy heat exchanger is installed in current Vitoden 222 F boilers (although I suspect I know what they started with).

In a quest to try to figure things out I have just spent a fair amount of time downloading various things from the public Viessmann site, and looking carefully at the parts manual (I understand contractors may have other access).

So here is my understanding (and what I found or know) of the Viessmann Vitodens history and Heat Exchanger materials:

I have a Vitodens 200 WB2A boiler. It has a 316T heat exchanger (from product literature I was able to get in 2006 at my time of decision to install this boiler; and also stated in the Technical Data Manual that can be downloaded in the historic product section of the Viessmann site.

The Technical Data Manual identifies the following for the WB2A in the "Benefits" Section: "High-Alloy stainless steel (SA-240 316Ti) Inox-Radial heat exchanger constructed in compliance with CSA B51 and ASME Section IV."

To the best of my understanding the WB2A series was produced until Fall 2009.

It, the concentric venting kit to go out the side of my house, and a 42 gallon Vitocell 300 (also with 316T SS) ran about 50% higher in part cost (excluding installation) than 2 other mod/con & DWH tanks offered to me. However, I felt it was worth the better materials, superior efficiency, and supposedly much better and long life engineering for the Vitodens (which might be true as all the Munchkins and Triangle tube boiler from about 2006 have been long totally replaced in my area).

Common complaints by heating contractors about the Vitodens and the Vitocell at the time were cost, non-standard temperature controls, English straight thread fittings which had to be sealed using fibers (instead of American tapered thread) and complexity of making it work with other equipment.

Viessmann promised to resolve those issues for the American market. In part, as I understood it - this was accomplished by building an assembly plant in Canada to reduce the Euro/US conversion issue, and other things were changed on the following models.

The Vitodens 200 WB2B boiler was introduced to the best of my understanding in Fall 2009, which reduced cost somewhat. This boiler also abandoned the domed MatriX burner and went to a cheaper cylindrical MatriX burner with a refractory lining the back of the HX. The 2009 Vitodens 200 WB2B has a different heat exchanger part number than the 200 WB2A. The Technical Data manual says it also has a 316Ti heat exchanger.

My understanding is that the most significant changes that the heating contractors were looking for in regards to controls, interface, price competitiveness, etc came with the introduction of the Vitodens 200 W and 100 W in I believe 2014 for the B2HA, 2015 for the B1HA, and 2016 for both the B1HB and B2HB.

The Technical Data manuals list that the heat exchangers for both B1HA and B1HB are made from SA240 Alloy S43932. This is a very low nickle alloy with chrome content similar to 304 SS and does not contain any titanium. Chrome, and Nickle have notable corrosion resistance properties. 304 SS today contains 17% Chrome and 8% Nickle. S43932 contains 16.5% Chrome and 0.5% Nickle. Titanium prevents higher temperature material degradation (the temperatures in the firing chamber are high enough to create issues with normal 300 series Stainless Steels).

The B1HB heat exchanger has the identical part number as the Vitodens 200 B2HA and B2HB models. The Technical Data Manuals also list the same SA240 Alloy S43932 for both of the most recent Vitodens 200 models.

The Vitodens 222 F, a variation of a Vitodens 200, has also had 2 models: B2TA introduced I believe in 2014, and B2TB introduced I believe in 2016.

This is where the confusion really occurs (and not just the information that you found GW).

The downloadable Technical Data Manual for the B2TA actually says 316 Ti for the heat exchanger: "Viessmann made SA240 316Ti stainless steel Inox-Radial heat exchanger constructed to CSA B51 and ASME Section IV"

However, the B2TA has the exact same heat exchanger part number as the Vitodens 100 B1HB and Vitodens 200 B2HA and B2HB which would make it not 316 Ti but SA240 / S43932. So there has to be an error somewhere.

The Technical Data Manual for the B2TB says SA240 Alloy S43932. "Viessmann made SA240 / S43932 stainless steel Inox-Radial heat exchanger constructed to CSA B51 and ASME Section IV."

However, the parts list identifies 3 different heat exchangers with unique part numbers depending on the serial number of the 222 F boilers.

Could it be that the initial heat exchanger material was SA240 / S43932, and then Viessmann perhaps realized that that alloy was not standing up well - and changed it to 316 Ti for the more recent boilers? Perhaps.

GW. If you would and since you are a contractor. Can you call Viessmann technical service and ask them about this issue? Was their a material change back to 316 Ti for the 222 F. Does that material change also affect the more recent Vitodens 100 and 200's (or is it planned to)?

@Skyline: I suggest that you look at your parts list (or download the parts manual from the Viessmann site). Look up your specific model and serial number, and see which version of the HX you have. You might also inquire to Viessmann direct as to what material that part number is made of (and cite the confusion between their Technical Data Manual and the brochure that GW posted).

I do know that the Vitocrossal 300 CU3A says 316 Ti in its Technical Data Manual "Lasting performance with industry-leading Viessmann made SA240 316 Ti stainless steel Inox-Crossal heat exchanger constructed to CSA B51 and ASME Section IV."

The Vitocrossal 300 CU3B also says 316 Ti in its Technical Data Manual.

I can only speculate that Viessmann is moving back to 316 Ti because the other alloy is starting to fail (and not just plug up due to improper cleaning) - and the older 316 Ti heat exchangers are not. Additional Nickle and preventing temperature effects on the alloy is important for long term life (and keeping the passages clear - see an above post about the cleaning tool for all the Vitodens HXs).


Here's a little blurb on 316Ti SS:

Type 316 Ti alloys offer excellent resistance to general corrosion and pitting/crevice corrosion, which is better than the conventional chromium-nickel austenitic stainless steels such as Type 304. It also offer higher creep, stress-rupture and tensile strength at elevated temperature. 316Ti alloy can be used for extended periods at elevated temperatures without compromising its corrosion resistance because the titanium addition stabilize the structure against chromium carbide precipitation, which is the source of normal elevated temperature carbon sensitization which leads to corrosion and pitting susceptibility.

I hope this helps... It's been quite the research project. Sorry I'm not good on taking screenshots and posting pictures. Download the manuals yourself to read them.

Perry

GW

Perry I’ll try and get some answers: I’m too spazzed out to make this the reason for a call though (too many fish in the pan). 

psb75

Perry,
I believe you are "on to something." I installed two Viessmann Vitodens 222F B2TB 35 boilers (floor-standing models) between 2016-2018. The Viessmann Data lists them as having SA240 316Ti stainless steel heat exchangers. Here's the INTERESTING part: Viessmann had a "voluntary recall" REPLACEMENT of those heat exchangers "due to premature or accelerated heat exchanger back plate failure. As a result of accelerated material degradation..." This was for Vitodens 200-W B2HB 19, 26, 35. And for Vitodens 222F B2TB 19, 35. Between the mfg. dates of 9/1/14 and 4/25/17. Viessmann sent new heat exchangers and other parts and compensated for labor as well. Very honorable of them--I thought. I also was very impressed with the instructions supplied and tech support. It was a very good exercise in "deep" Viessmann service and repair. Left me impressed with their engineering.

Jamie Hall

Good grief. Maybe there's something to be said for cast iron?

psb75

As a solo installer, I'd much rather not wrestle with cast iron. Well-supported, well engineered stainless steel (with titanium or no) is a preferred option.

PerryHolzman

psb75 said:

Perry,
I believe you are "on to something." I installed two Viessmann Vitodens 222F B2TB 35 boilers (floor-standing models) between 2016-2018. The Viessmann Data lists them as having SA240 316Ti stainless steel heat exchangers. Here's the INTERESTING part: Viessmann had a "voluntary recall" REPLACEMENT of those heat exchangers "due to premature or accelerated heat exchanger back plate failure. As a result of accelerated material degradation..." This was for Vitodens 200-W B2HB 19, 26, 35. And for Vitodens 222F B2TB 19, 35. Between the mfg. dates of 9/1/14 and 4/25/17. Viessmann sent new heat exchangers and other parts and compensated for labor as well. Very honorable of them--I thought. I also was very impressed with the instructions supplied and tech support. It was a very good exercise in "deep" Viessmann service and repair. Left me impressed with their engineering.

Those dates match a lot; and it covers the entire initial production of the modern Vitoden 100 W, 200 W, and 222 F boilers. So, we may have found the reason - and the newer generation of these boilers may have been upgraded to 316 Ti heat exchangers (and most old ones retrofitted), even if the technical data manuals have not been properly updated.

Also, I just looked and I made a mistake last night on the Vitodens 200 W 2nd generation B2HB. It's parts list also shows 2 different HX part numbers based on serial numbers. 7843239 (which was used for the Vidoens 100 B1HB, Vitodens 200 B2HA, initial B2HB, 222 F B2TA, and initial B2TB).

The replacement heat exchanger (for the newer versions of the Vitodens 200 W, and 222 F is also the same part number: 7844863

Not sure about what happened with the Vitodens 100 W. It does not show a change in HX part numbers for either model; just the original part numbers. I wonder if the recall also affected the Vitodens 100 W. Is the 100 W still being sold in the USA?

Anyway; someone really needs to talk to Viessmann and find out if indeed the HX alloy has been changed to 316 Ti for the newer Vitodens 100 W, 200 W, and 222 F. You might also suggest that they update their Technical Data Manuals with the change (Originally was ____, upgraded to 316 Ti after 201x).

Perry

PerryHolzman

Jamie Hall said:

Good grief. Maybe there's something to be said for cast iron?

You are partially correct... The problem is that just last week we saw an updated post on a boiler issue where a 10 year old cast iron boiler had completely rusted through. That is apparently as common now as we hear stories about the SS HXs failing.

The boiler mfr's have cut cast iron out and increased steam velocities... and while there might be a few specific models of cast iron boilers that have long life. It can no longer be assumed that a cast iron boiler has the historic long life that they used to.

Also, you cannot get high efficiency condensing operation from a cast iron boiler. No reason you could not cast 316 Ti, or any of the other SS alloys, if you wanted to (other than cost). A cast SS boiler might just be the ultimate for long life....

"Save a few bucks to lower the initial price" has dramatically changed boiler lives; regardless of materials.

It does help if someone at the boiler mfr actually understands basic metallurgy, proper heat treating of welds (especially critical on SS), and galvanic corrosion. In my opinion, so many of the modern boiler problems from many boiler mfr's can be traced to a clear lack of such knowledge. I think Viessmann learned a lesson by going away from 316 Ti to lower cost. I'm sure the recall cost them far more than if they had just stayed with 316 Ti up front.

Perry

psb75

Thanks Perry. As far a I understand (looking at my hard-copy paper) from Viessmann recall notification, the recall DID NOT include the 100 W. Only the 200 W and 222F. I only personally handled two, 222F recalls. Seems like I read some information about Viessmann's "pickling" of the metals having something to do with this issue. Does that mean anything to you? I think I 'read it on the internet' (dreaded phrase, I know).

PerryHolzman

@psb75

Pickling is a chemical treatment that can be used to clean metals for appearance and/or improve corrosion resistance.

I was thinking about doing a post on metallurgy and issues related to SS alloys - and specifically things you are looking at for boiler HX service. Its not just about Chrome and Nickle. Carbon, Molybdenum, Titanium, and other elements alters things (I loved the old arsenic addition to certain copper alloys for HX tubing - which most tubing alloy melt shops won't deal with anymore; and nothing else is nearly as effective as what it did).

Chemical treatments (pickling), heat treatments (annealing/quenching), and physical treatments (shot blasting/peening) also affects things. You can take a less expensive alloy, or one with other desired physical properties, and increase other factors by additional treatments.

It does not always work out as planned though (and at the power plant level when looking at metal failures we often just upgrade to the metal that does not need a lot of extra treatments that will work for the replacements. I've never had a manufacturer object to us requesting a better metal alloy - of course that's a price adder (often very minor) - and it came from us. We usually just don't want to deal with the issue again in the future.

I don't have time today - and not sure when I will get there (I spent too much time on researching the Vitodens Materials question already).

What we really need confirmation that Viessmann is making the newer Vitodens 200 and 222 F HXs from 316 Ti, which is a material change from before.

Perry

psb75

Thanks Perry for explaining "pickling" and metals. Hoped I wasn't confusing w/ a cooking video.
Thanks also for all of your Viessmann research today.
I am in contact today with the MI Viessmann rep. I will ask him about 316 Ti in 200 W and 222F.

Skyline

@PerryHolzman and @GW

If the 222F documentation is confusing for you, just imagine how confusing it is for a newbie...

That did't stop me from looking in to it and pose the question to tech support. Here's the answer for the support, take it at face value:

Our condensing boilers all have a 316Ti Stainless Steel heat Exchanger in an Inox Radial design.

The Inox Radial refers to the circular pattern and coil spacing of the heat exchanger. 316Ti Stainless Steel is the material the heat exchanger is made of.

I've looked at Viessmann service instruction for the 222-F, that lists two HXs, depending on the serial numbers.

There are two models, where the serial numbers begin with:

B2TB 19, 68 Boiler 7542250
B2TB 35, 125 Boiler 7542251

The actual HX type is determined by the sequential serial number, after the first seven digits:

for ASME heat exchangers beginning
with sequential serial no. 760470100000

Heat exchanger assembly,
ASME v3, vent pipe adaptor and gaskets

Once the sequential number hits 760470103844, the HX is different:

for ASME heat exchangers beginning
with sequential serial no. 760470103844:

Heat exchanger assembly,
ASME v2 with flue gas collector, vent pipe adaptor and gaskets
Based on the nature of thesequential numbers, couple of statements can be made.

One is that sequential serial no. beginning at 760470100000 with ASME v3 was short lived, the last serial number with this HX is 760470103843. This also means that there had been 3,843 had been manufactured. I seems to remember seeing a recall for Viessmann boilers, maybe it had been related to the to this small batch production of 222-F.

The sequential serial no. beginning with 760470103844 fall back to the previous version of the HX, ASME v2, that may have been falling back to the 316Ti SS HX. That's just based on the version number, that presumably sequential as well.

The interesting part in these sequential serial n. is that they are 12 digits. Looking at my boiler shows the sequential serial n. as 9 digit. Maybe the first, or the first couple of numbers indicate country of origin that in my case is Canada.

The service instruction does not mention the 9 digit sequential serial n. As such, it is pretty much useless, as far as deciding the HX ASME version in case of replacing it. My guess would be that mine has ASME v2 HX, what's yours?

Yes, manuals are confusing...

psb75

Perry,
Here's what I got, original ser. # of the heat-x in the 222F 35 boiler: 760470104587. Here is the replacement heat-x ser.# 760470108590. This was for their voluntary recall.
A salesperson at Johnstone Supply in the Midwest said that Viessmann does have a Ti as a component in their stainless steel heat exchangers.

Skyline

@psb75...
Another thing I've learned...

Boilers with the 19 digits serial number, like your 222f 35 is made in Germany. My 222F 35 boiler with 16 digits serial number is made in Canada.

As such, the service instruction does not seem to be applicable for my boiler. At least on the surface, as far as the HX is concerned.

GW

Viessmann has long series of numbers all over the place. Search for the 16 digits 

psb75

Skyline, thanks for that 12 and 16 digit difference explanation. Very interesting about the Germany vs. Canada origin of Viessmann boilers. So that 'begs the question' WHICH tech support would YOU call for help--Canada? That might be a nice option if U.S. tech support was busy. Canadians are famous for being polite.

PerryHolzman

@ Skyline:

I do not have access to the service manuals; except for the one I own for my boiler. Perhaps I have not yet figured out where they are on the Viessmann site.

I do have access to the Viessmann Parts manual; and it tells a bit different story; and I'm going to combine some information I just noticed:

I'm also putting this in chronological order by date HX was put into production (the part numbers are issued in linear order - so an earlier part number was put into production at an earlier date).

Once Viessmann moved to produce a lower cost and more contractor friendly version of the Vitoden 200 than what I have (with a 316 Ti Heat Exchanger), and introduced the Vitodens 100-W, 200-W, and 222-F the following is can be said:

The Vitodens 100-W B1HA 24/30 has a unique heat exchanger. The HX part number is: 7373111
The technical data manual says that this is SA240 / S43932 stainless steel. This HX part number predates my Vitodens 200 WB2A (Introduced Sep 2003 - my HX part number is 7823022). I was aware that they had Vitodens Boilers in Europe long prior to starting to import them into the United States and Canada. So I believe they used an existing heat exchanger that had long been in use in Europe.

The Viessmann 100-W B1HB 26/35, 200-W B2HA 19/28/35, and 222-F B2TA 19/35 models shares the same HX. The HX part number is: 7839671 (introduced June 2014). 2 of the 3 The technical data manuals (the earliest 2) say that this is SA240 / S43932 stainless steel. I'm not sure why the 222F B2TA technical manual says 316 Ti - as its the exact same HX as in the other boilers of their generation (and a material change should bring about a part number change).

Note that for the above Vitodens 100-W Boilers that the current Product Flyer "Does Not" claim a 316 Ti heat exchanger (whereas the current 200-W and 222-F Product Flyers do state 316 Ti).

Both the Viessmann 200-W B2HB 19/26/35 and Viessmann 222-F B2TB 19/35 models use the exact same HXs, with the exact same change in part numbers at the exact same serial numbers:

Serial numbers beginning with 760470100000 - 3843 (1st introduced Dec 2016); The HX part number is: 7843239.

The Technical Data Manuals for both boilers say that this is SA240 / S43932 stainless steel (when those Technical Data Manuals were produced).

Serial numbers beginning with 760470103844; The HX part number is: 7844863 (unsure of introduction date).

Note that the current Vitodens 200-W and 222-F Product Flyer says 316 Ti.

So here is what I think: In my opinion Viessmann decided to use a cheaper HX material SA240 / S43932. The Vitodens 100 was always the lowest cost version - and it may have always had the cheaper material in Europe as well. SA240 / S43932 is in so many Technical Data Manuals which are issued when a boiler model comes out (where the earlier Technical Data Manual for my 2003 production 200 WB2A has 316 Ti).

Viessmann started to notice issues. Thus, Viessmann has gone back to 316 Ti for the higher value products; and they have not updated the Technical Data Manuals to explain the possible differences, as I feel they should have. The other possible explanation is that their technical data manual authors did not know what they were doing (making a mistake in many manuals vs what now looks like just 1 mistake).

I see nothing to indicate a 316 Ti heat exchanger in any of the Vitodens 100-W models.

In regards to what HX material is installed in a Vitodens 200-W or 222-F boiler: Look at the model (B2HA and B2TA are different than B2HB and B2TB models).

For the older "A" models I have no idea, unless the HX was recently changed with a newer part number.

If you have a later "B" model; look at the HX serial numbers to determine where you are. I believe its safe to assume that you have 316 Ti if you have the more recent heat exchanger part number (serial # 760470103844 or higher).

Skyline: so what is your model number and serial number of your HX. Where does it fall out?

I suggest you download the parts manual from Viessmann. That's info you will need in the future.

I hope that helps,

It's nice to see that the current flyers list 316 T for the Vitodens 200-W and 222-F.

Perry

BigRob

We have a Lochinvar WHN199 and a KBN286 serving a 12 unit condo building. The KBN has served a Triangle Tube Smart 80 indirect at 180F for about 10 years straight, continuously. I fires at least once an hour every day. The inducer fan is still perfect and it lights perfectly. It's never broken down. The only issue is the LCD screen has some stuck pixels, probably from the heat. The WHN heats radiant floors in the whole building and the fan bearings are maybe a little noisy as of last week. Maybe. I'm not easily impressed, but I would not hesitate to buy another Lochinvar product. They have a fire tube floor model now, too. I'd love them to make a system similar in design to the PVI conquest at 199 input. In SF, anything larger than 199 input and 109 gallons is considered a boiler and requires a yearly "inspection" for $200 each boiler. At time of replacement I will gang together whatever is on the market to not have the inspections- just another thing to do and manage.

Skyline

@PerryHolzman

My 222F B2TB 35, 125 made in Canada. As such, the serial number is 16 digits (7542251901172236. The technical data manual for the 19 digit serial number at the Viessmann US website does list 316 Ti HX.

On the other hand, the technical data manual Viessmann Canada website, Page 2, lists the HX as:



Please note the release date of the manual in the picture, 07/2019; seemingly, the "Ti" reference had been removed from the manual.

This is also stated in the service instruction, Page 8, from the Canadian website:



The service manual at the Canadian website states 07/2020 date, that's just two month prior to getting my 222F.

In so many word, my boiler's HX material is just stainless steel Inox, the latter one is just another name for stainless steel.

The chances are that the Stainless Steel-Inox HX costs less, than the 316 Ti. I don't want to think about where else Viessmann CA had cut corner to reduce manufacturing cost and maintain/increase profitability.

PerryHolzman

Perhaps the difference between much of the rest of the world and the USA is our product liabilty laws and the legal system. It can become very expensive (often 100 -1,000,000 times the cost of a product change) to become involved in a product liability lawsuit in the USA.

That may explain why it appears that the USA product has apparently gone back the to the 316 Ti; and also the warranty replacement of a number of heat exchanges in these boilers occurred here.

Note on where the HX's are "manufactured." I'm quite sure that regardless of alloy used, that the base rectangle spiral HX coil for the Vitodens series of boilers is produced in Germany. That takes a unique machine - and there is no reason to duplicate that machine elsewhere in the world.

Brazing, soldering, or welding that coil to the fittings, associated chemical and heat treatments, and assembling that coil in the casing are require to finish the HX.

All it takes is just the last of these operations to occur in Canada for Viessmann to claim that the heat exchanger was manufactured in Canada.

Perry