Decision time for new gas fired boiler / indirect.

woobagooba

Yea Olde GB-142 is finally being put out to pasture. Its been an adventure. I'm within a couple weeks of a final boiler decision (several quotes coming in). What are we liking in Eastern MA for boilers and indirect tanks? No combies please.

Thank you

unclejohn

I'm still a Triangle Tube guy.

Ironman

I really like the HTP EFTU. I’m getting ready to put one in my house.

Their SSP indirect has been our “go to” for years.

pecmsg

The one recommended by a Highly Qualified Contractor!

One who has taken the time to measure "everything" and submitted a proper Heat Load / Loss calculation. (Not a W A G )

One who has explained where changes to the piping design can be made and return on investment.

One who has explained where changes can be made in the building envelop for an even greater return on investment.

woobagooba

pecmsg said:

The one recommended by a Highly Qualified Contractor!

One who has taken the time to measure "everything" and submitted a proper Heat Load / Loss calculation. (Not a W A G )

One who has explained where changes to the piping design can be made and return on investment.

One who has explained where changes can be made in the building envelop for an even greater return on investment.

The envelope was stripped to studs and sheathing, deep energy retrofit done inside and out. Assume your points have been addressed.

GW

I’m on the other side of the state, a neighbor of sorts. I’m always curious what prompts people to seek a brand rather than a high caliber contractor.

Heat loss calcs- another point of curiosity. Most of the homes we work in- the smallest boiler available is two or three times larger than the home actually requires. Example- my mod con runs on low fire for 5 minutes or so then shuts off for 15 minutes or so (on an average winter day), and it’s not a small house (about 2800 sq ft)

Your GB was great in its day but small glitches and few contractors that want to deal with the glitches (and sometimes unhappy homeowners) are not plentiful. We have replaced a bunch of GBs. Almost all the munchkins we installed are now scrap metal. 

Then there’s the setup- if your installing company sends their newb or their so so guy, you’ve gained nothing by all your research. It’s not “difficult” but like many things in life, it’s in the details (when it comes to mod con boilers). A homeowner really can’t “ensure” the install was done thoroughly, perhaps you would agree. 

Anyway, I like Viessmann and Buderus/Bosch. We have installed a couple hundred or so. I have a middle aged (8!years old) Viessmann Vitodens 100-B. Just one “no heat call” thus far. I will try the new HTP someday, seems good. 

If you’re extra detail oriented: Spending more dough on a “buffer tank” is a good move. Or buy the Viessmann CU3A and be done with it. 

I hope your new boiler treats you well for a good long time. 

unclejohn

@GW Said " Almost all the munchkins we installed are now scrap metal. "

Which means you and I as well, thought they would be around awhile and had no idea the company would discontinue them after roughly15 years or so. I agree a competent contractor is right on top of the list. Many contractor's install multicable lines.
Some times the offer of the trip to Jamaica may sway a sale towards a boiler that maybe just as good. I see no reason to ask the question which boiler is the best in OHO.

Jamie Hall

What bugs me about that, @GW , is that I well remember when many of us thought that the Munchkins were the best thing to come along since sliced bread. Which means I must be getting old, which I don't like to be reminded of.

GW

I'm just trying to offer an opposing line of thinking--these days that's a risky thing!

But really- boilers and cars have a lot in common. When we have a 12 year old GB acting up- we quote the price to fix what is apparent and obvious. More often than not the HO asks, "well what's a new boiler cost?" When we answer that question, 50% of the time we are installing new stuff, the other 50% of the time we are fixing old stuff. There is no right or wrong. Just like--- if your brother, aunt or uncle sells cars for a living, they typically aren't twisting your arm to 'stay in the car you drove in on'. We all have our reasons to spend money or save money. Saving money may require more risk (who dumps $3000 on a 15 year old car? Maybe 50%?), whereas spending more money lowers risk (new stuff)

GW

@Jamie Hall ah I skipped over your message, yes that was a long time ago, right? At the time, it was the muncher or it was the very costly Viessmann 200 A series. I don't really want people selling me boilers anymore, let me choose what i wish to install and sell to my clientele, that's my MO.

PerryHolzman

I'm agree with GW. Heat loss calcs are only required on old poorly insulated/sealed houses or larger new houses, and the SWAG is OK for most as in fact. The smallest boilers from many manufacturers is indeed larger than many common house heat loads. So for those homes - I'd not look for a detailed heat loss.

However, as a homeowner you can with a little work download the free Slant Fin calculator and get a fairly good estimate on the heat load of your house.

I feel that the most important factor in choosing a contractor and the boiler they choose is 1st to ask them what is their favorite boiler (s) for your application, why, - and how many years have they been installing and servicing that kind of boiler from that manufacturer.

You want someone who can tell you that they have been installing that brand and type of boiler for over a decade (and the longer the better) and that its a reliable boiler that they can easily service (and stock the common parts for).

2nd ask for pictures of their installs (including the air scoop and expansion tank, etc). Post those here for comments if you can. A lot of heating contractors are not installing equipment right and while it may "work" it does not work well.

A good heating contractor who knows what they are doing and has a long history with a brand/type of boiler is far more important than the boiler brand/type itself.

I'm one of those who has a wonderful boiler (1st generation Viessmann Vitodens 200) which will last decades if serviced right; but, its unique in the area and no heating contractor within 90 miles has any idea how to service it or stock parts. So, I had to learn to service it and I stock some parts. My wife has started to ask who she could call and the options if I'm not here to fix it, and also should I stock some of the other parts (and some of those cost $$$$ each; a part that failed and I had to replace last May after 13.5 years - fortunately the weather was warm enough that the house would not freeze for the week it took me to get a working part - but it did get rather cold).

Please spend your time ensuring you get a good contractor who has a long history of servicing what they recommend and stocks the parts for it. Otherwise, be ready to replace it again down the road when it breaks down and the heating contractor can't really service it.

Perry

woobagooba

@GW you've been very helpful re: nursing my GB142 to the finish line, again let me thank you for that. I'm now asking about brands as I'm likely in need of a tie breaker on all other points. Was hoping to jive what I'm hearing her versus what I'm hearing locally. Another source for a cross check.

Curious you are now OK with Buderus/Bosch after the GB issues?

GW

yes I like the Bosch Greenstar. We have installed about 120 of them. The floor sitting boiler knocks the labor down significantly (huge plus for Munchin change outs). If you have a GB then of course you already have a wall, so in that case we install the ZBR series. We've had a few flappers give us grief; my service tech carries flappers when we are doing no heat calls. We've had a couple of LP jobs give us grief, i may stick with Viessmann on LP jobs, they seems more forgiving of the LP regulator is acting up. It may be just in my head (LP issues and Greenstar), but I can't argue with myself.

tim smith

My vote is Lochinvar kHb/WHb floor or wall mount boiler by a known good installer. I have them installed for 9 years, 100plus boilers and hardly any part replacements, ie a few other than igniters (maint item). They like several others have a flue sensor recall, grommet retrofit curing that. Fixed on current models. Ps, we service pretty much all the ones we installed. We did Triangle prior to Lochinvar but were seeing a few too many part failures.
Lochinvar indirect tank is top notch too.
Good luck
T

WMno57

GW said:

But really- boilers and cars have a lot in common.

Saving money may require more risk (who dumps $3000 on a 15 year old car? Maybe 50%?), whereas spending more money lowers risk (new stuff)

You bring up some good points.

In the last several years 1989 -1998 Dodge diesel trucks and 1994.5 -2003 Ford diesel trucks have seen tremendous appreciation of their used values. I would have no qualms dumping $10,000 into repairs on a rust free version of one of these.

Consumers are tired of wasting money on "green" cars, trucks, washing machines, dishwashers, and mod-cons that were rushed to market because of government mandates.

GW

@WMno57 Things not lasting: We live in a funny world. 8 years I threw a lot of dough at my home, renovation would be an understatement. I recall the kitchen appliance salesman unabashedly stating today’s appliances will last 8 years. Recently, I needed a new fridge and range for an apartment I own: Another appliance sales man stated “if the board goes on the electric range you’re better off buying a new range”. Times are changing. 

again- to each their own. We fix what people want fixed and replace what people want replaced. 

Coincidentally- 8 years later: the dishwasher proved to be a lemon, as did the microwave. The fridge is still chugging (ice maker broke 5 years ago) and the “not too cheap” gas/elec range busted its door springs, but that was fixed. The washer and dryer have behaved wonderfully 

WMno57

What's a control board?

woobagooba

I can do either floor mount or wall mount boiler. Why would I choose one over the other?

tim smith

Convenience re floor/ Wall. What fits better in location.

GW

Not a quick answer. Replacing the same version you have now generally cuts down on labor (assuming the previous installer didn’t do a quickie install) Depends on what brand or model you’re looking at. I really dig the floor sitting Viessmann CU3A- larger mass boiler and no need for a boiler pump. Small boilers are cheaper but one kinda has to wonder if the small boiler will go the typical 15-20 year useful life expectancy. Only time will tell which models are above or below average. Another unknown or unquantifiable variable is the general reliability of the control/computer system of the boiler. 

woobagooba

Should have mentioned ... here is all that remains of the old system ...



See that condensate pump in the far corner?

PerryHolzman

GW said:

Small boilers are cheaper but one kinda has to wonder if the small boiler will go the typical 15-20 year useful life expectancy. Only time will tell which models are above or below average. Another unknown or unquantifiable variable is the general reliability of the control/computer system of the boiler. 

Why cannot we homeowners expect a boiler to last 30-40+ years; especially given the cost to change them.

As far as I can tell, my 1st generation Vitodens 200 will in fact last that long - IF the right parts are replaced when they need to be and its cleaned annually using the "Viessmann special tool" to keep the heat exchanger passageways open (my guess is that the internal pump or the solenoid valve for the indirect circuit goes next, perhaps the burner control card as all those are original).

The material the heat exchanger is made from will last forever. Adding Titanium to the SS makes a lot of difference (and I doubt that the normal SS others use will stand up so long): but you have to buy 100 ton lots of the SS to get it (they make the specific alloy you want at that size order), and it appears only Viessmann is doing that.

Another advantage with Viessmann. I can always count that the parts will available - even if I have to order and wait for them (there's a reason I have certain spare parts stocked in my basement).

Perry

GW

Here here Perry I have one in my basement too (100 B series). I have yet to replace a viessmann system. We did replaced an oil boiler when the Trimatic MC went funky (with a new Viessmann)

The simple parts you cite—-no normal heating guy would suggest ditching the boiler with that small of a repair. If the computer system goes wonky or there’s error codes that can’t be rectified, that’s when boilers get changed out. 

GW

Wooba there’s a stark lack of heating pipes, gas line, electrical in that still shot. You chopped everything? 

Jamie Hall

@PerryHolzman -- there are, sadly, at least two good reasons why homeowners today can't get boilers which last 30 to 40 years. Reason number one is that folks won't pay for them. Reason number two is related: making a boiler which will last that long with efficiency numbers which the Feds. will tolerate or the average homeowner will even look at is very expensive.

One of my favourite engineering maxims is this: give me enough money, and I can design and build you anything you want. It applies. Most folks have hysterics when you start talking about the money...

WMno57

@woobagooba
IIWM I would select a hydronic system that provides redundancy to the heat provided by the electric forced air heat pumps in the event of a power outage.

I would select a basic hot water or STEAM heat system that uses as little electricity as possible. I would pick a system that has minimal sensitive electronics.

I would also purchase the smallest natural gas fired generator with an automatic transfer switch. This would not be sized to be a whole house generator.

I would also have a small UPS to run the boiler controls and pumps. During the event of a power outage, I would not have to run the genset continuously. I would have circuits run from the UPS to my computers.

woobagooba

GW said:

Wooba there’s a stark lack of heating pipes, gas line, electrical in that still shot. You chopped everything? 

Chopped everything. It was a tangled mess of 80 yr old cast iron piping, newer copper, pex patches, etc. Short lengths of copper remain to attach new basement overhead piping to the existing emitter runs to first and second floor.

Skyline

@WMno57 posted:

I would also have a small UPS to run the boiler controls and pumps. During the event of a power outage, I would not have to run the genset continuously. I would have circuits run from the UPS to my computers.

It took me two weeks after the installation of the Viessmann 222-F combi-boiler to add a UPS for the power supply; the stand-by generator has been in place already. The old, non-condensing boiler had good quality surch protector only.

Yes, the UPS can provide power for an hour or so, but that's wasn't the main reason for me.

Like any other computers, embedded systems, etc., the Vitodent controls board is also sensiitive to power variances. Variances like spikes, surges, brownouts and noise interference among others. The UPS is much more suitable for protecting against power variances, than a surge protector.

Depending on the stand-by generator, it may or may not supply clean power to the house. The UPS cleans the generator output and outcome is clean power to the boiler.

Skyline

@GW posted:

Another appliance sales man stated “if the board goes on the electric range you’re better off buying a new range”. Times are changing.

Sales people make a living selling stuff, of course he/she stated that. Not much change there...

Despite having surge protectors for all of my appliances and computers, my range's control board fried during a short surge. One of the surge protector for the computer actually burned the carpet, but the computer was a OK. Replacing all of the surge protectors wasn't cheap.

The options were, replace the control board or buy a new range. It proved to be rather easy and cost efficient to just replace the control board. It does help, if you know where to get the parts. I wish they'd sell boiler parts too...

MaxMercy

Skyline said:

Like any other computers, embedded systems, etc., the Vitodent controls board is also sensiitive to power variances. Variances like spikes, surges, brownouts and noise interference among others.

I can state categorically that there is no reason whatsoever for any circuit to be sensitive to run of the mill issues like noise and voltage variances that are common to anything connected to an AC grid. Any relatively simple control circuit like boiler controls that are sensitive to routine AC issues is either the result of bad engineering or cost cutting measures.

Jamie Hall

" Any relatively simple control circuit like boiler controls that are sensitive to routine AC issues is either the result of bad engineering or cost cutting measures"

Both of which are commonly found in modern consumer grade products, unfortunately...

psb75

Time for me to chime in on this one. I just got done replacing a control consol for a Viessmann Viodens 200 WB2B wall-hung mod/con, 10 years in service. In mid Nov. had a "blinking power" episode on a notoriously bad grid. Boiler threw some FE codes. "Replace PCB" was the remedy. I thought it was just the grid 'hiccups' that were making the boiler throw the fault codes. Should not have ignored them. Boiler stopped heating on Xmas eve. Here then, is the classic Viessmann problem: no tech support, no parts availability during the holiday period. Parts must come from RI. Common carriers slow...holiday...Covid...politics...parts arrived TODAY. Now fixed. Quite an Odyssey.
I like the idea of UPS "cleaning up" power supply! Excellent suggestion Skyline! This house HAS an automatic stand-alone generator. Grid "hiccups" didn't make generator come on! Motherboard got fried. Lesson learned.

Skyline

Getting a combi-boiler installed is not cheap, spending less than 1% of the installation cost on a UPS backup is well worth it. Especially, if you take it in to account, that most UPS companies have connected equipment guarantee. Oversizing the UPS isn't necessary, albeit the larger the UPS, it has better capabilities for cleaning up the power.

Mine is oversized, CP1500AVRLCD, would support power for the boiler for about 45 minutes and has a $500K connected equipment guarantee. I am not certain how well the guarantee works/honored, but hopefully, I'll never needed.



The UPS is on a shelve, in case there would be a flood in the room. Also keep in mind how to wire up the boiler kill switch with UPS in the line. It's not hard, I did mine after the installers left...

PerryHolzman

GW said:

Here here Perry I have one in my basement too (100 B series). I have yet to replace a viessmann system. We did replaced an oil boiler when the Trimatic MC went funky (with a new Viessmann)

The simple parts you cite—-no normal heating guy would suggest ditching the boiler with that small of a repair. If the computer system goes wonky or there’s error codes that can’t be rectified, that’s when boilers get changed out. 

I wish it were that way. The original installing heating contractor told me years ago that the first thing they would do was replace the boiler if it failed - for most any reason. I've had a few polite conversations with some of the other heating contractors in my area and their general approach is that if they are not familiar with the boiler brand and parts are not stocked locally. They would want to replace the boiler with something they were familiar with.

I have a Vitodens 200 WB2 Series, I believe manufactured in 2005 (literature is from Feb 2005) - and installed in 2006. Its the only Vitodens installed in my area.

Nearest stocked parts are 100 miles away in Milwaukee (and I'm not sure what parts they have: I normally get my parts from Boston Heating Supply who will sell to homeowners in other states); and you understand that heating contractors must mark things up noticeably to cover the cost of business.

In April 2019 (12.5 years after installation) I replaced the fan (vibrating very badly at this point - had been getting worse for years - which had broken the ignition transformer support tabs), main control board (had failed), ignition transformer (which was hanging by its wires because the support tabs broke from fan vibration), and tossed in the ignition electrode and flame sensor rod at the same time. I had the fan, ignition transformer, ignition electrode, flame sensor, spare gaskets, and a package of gas connection O-rings in stock already as I was planning that replacement when the boiler died). At the time I also purchased as spare VR-20 board (which I understands controls the combustion). There was probably 10 hours of troubleshooting and maintenance work involved in that (and not counting the wasted time as my 1st new main control board was bad and had to be returned and replaced under warranty). I'm also very familiar with how to read the error codes, modify the programming, take this boiler apart and put it back together. Someone not so familiar... would need a lot more time.

My understanding is that most heating contractors figure that with their time and markup on parts (assuming they can get parts in a timely manner), such a rebuild would be in the range of most of the cost of replacement. This is the dilemma I really see with modern mod/con boilers. 5-6 years down the line many of the heating contractors have moved onto different equipment lines and really no longer want to service the older equipment based on converstaions with neighbors and people I run into about how they had to replace their mod/con boiler at 5-6 years old, and I understand that some of the manufacturers make getting parts difficult after then as well (at least Viessmann will have parts available for their stuff for decades: Even if its in their east coast warehouse).

I did the work myself for about 1/4-1/3 the cost of a getting a replacement boiler. I do understand that my technical skills and boiler/control knowledge are not common among homeowners, and that many homeowners could not do what I can.

Covid 19 has affected my earnings significantly this past year (I own my own businesses). So $ to stock more parts is tight. Yet my wife and I have decided that we need to start stocking up on the most likely things to go next. As you know, the main control board on these units can only be described as "pricey" and the fan was not cheep either.

See my reply to Jamie Hall as well.

Perry

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I replaced the fan (vibrating very badly at this point - had been getting worse for years - which had broken the ignition transformer support tabs).............

Perry: Those broken supports has happened on almost every WB2 boiler I service. I don't think it's due to vibration; more about fatigue from continual expansion and contraction from the heat of the burner door.

PerryHolzman

Jamie Hall said:

@PerryHolzman -- there are, sadly, at least two good reasons why homeowners today can't get boilers which last 30 to 40 years. Reason number one is that folks won't pay for them. Reason number two is related: making a boiler which will last that long with efficiency numbers which the Feds. will tolerate or the average homeowner will even look at is very expensive.

One of my favourite engineering maxims is this: give me enough money, and I can design and build you anything you want. It applies. Most folks have hysterics when you start talking about the money...

You are correct Jamie.

However, one of the very reasons I purchased a Viessmann Vitodens 200 in 2006 was that it was supposed to have been designed for the long term - and it was a pricey boiler at the time (50%+ higher cost than several other common mod/cons of that time).

The 316T (T is for Titanium) heat exchanger alloy is in fact a pricey alloy that will in fact last for decades in condensing boiler applications, assuming it is properly cleaned periodically (where normal 304 or 316 can fail in a decade or so). I'm literally a heat exchanger engineer that specializes in material selection for long life (and I totally laughed at the "new" Aluminum heat exchanges for boilers being introduced at the time (I knew about both galvanic corrosion of Aluminum to other materials and acidic corrosion from flue gasses) - and have been proven correct: Look up some of my postings from 2006-2008).

So then, why is it that the fan started to vibrate at about 7 years. That vibration got worse every year after that. I had to shim the cover to keep it from making bad vibrating sounds. Then it broke the support tabs on the ignition transformer (which I supported with electrical tape). After I replaced it in 2019 I disassembled it to find that their was a plastic fan disk that had been loosing pieces (the cause of the imbalance). The motor bearings were just sleeves and were wore to the point that you could easily wiggle the shaft back and forth. So I'm going in my mind that $5 more for a metal fan (max); $10 more (max) for robust ball bearings - and the fan/motor would likely run for decades without problems.

When I installed the boiler I knew all about power surges and how they affect electronic circuits. I also knew that cheap CMOS based surge protectors usually die between 5 and 7 years. That only a heavy transformer based surge protector lasted for many decades (and potentially a century). So I installed a premium 20 Amp transformer based surge protector (not cheap) wired prior to the boiler.

https://zerosurge.com/commercial-solutions/

Model FF1-20W-120 - #002-00072

I also acquired a double conversion pure sin wave output battery backup so that the boiler would never see a power loss or a surge.

At 12.5 years the main control board failed (very pricey).

For a supposed premium quality boiler I was totally surprised to seen normal industrial quality capacitors on the board (a lot of them). Normal industrial quality capacitors are known to degrade and die typically in 10-15 years - if they are protected from surges (and quicker than that with surges). Well known; and virtually certainly the cause of the failure.

For another $20 on a control board that sells for about 50 times that price they could install capacitors with known lives in the 50 year range (and for another $50 above that they could install capacitors with 100+ year lives).

I'm OK with paying for premium priced equipment designed to last.

It bothers me a lot to see that supposedly such premium equipment has major expensive components with expected lives in the 7 - 10 year range.

Now I understand that the next generation of the Vitodens that Viessmann reduced the cost (and they eliminated the fantastic burner that was used on my generation of Vitodens). I've certainly read about fan and main circuit board failures as eventual occurrences - on the newer Vitodens boilers younger than mine (and likely without that surge protection and pure sin wave power of mine).

Anyway, moving forward I guess I have to live with a likely fan replacement every 8 years, and a main circuit board failure sometimes after 10 years moving forward (and should I stock one of these as it would take likely take several days+ to get one).

It's still cheaper than replacing it as long as I do the work myself. There's no contractor in my area who is interested in touching such a unique boiler (even if it is a Viessmann).

I've sure got a different view of how I would do things differently if I do have to replace it someday - or if I move or build new.

Perry

PerryHolzman

To many: Yes the idea of surge protection and the appropriate UPS can do wonders.

Just make sure you have something that actually works long term.

Almost all surge protectors sold are low cost CMOS based surge protectors. They are light in weight and depend on electronic CMOS chips to control the surge. CMOS chips are very cheap (perhaps $0.50-$2 of CMOS chips in most commonly sold surge protectors).

The problem is that evertime a surge hits a CMOS chip - it degrades the life of the CMOS chips. In almost all cased the surge protectors you buy in most stores are essentially dead as surge protectors in 5-7 years.

Yes a bunch of companies offer supposedly fantastic warranties. Years ago I did some web research and found numerous claims of them not honoring the warrantee because the consumer could not absolutely prove that it was the surge protector that failed (even if it was physically burnt to a crisp). I have no idea on the current status of their payment on such claims.

However, regardless. CMOS chip surge protectors will burn down to no surge protection capacity just by the normal surges that occur on normal circuits in some years. The cheapest - perhaps 5 years or less. The most expensive circuit designs with the largest CMOS bank of chips - likely over 10 years.

There is no way for you to test your surge protectors to determine remaining life or the maximum surge it can handle.
Some have indicators to tell you if they have likely failed. Most do not. Some have fake light indicators that tell you nothing about its ability to work.

They are cheap. So you can replace them every few years - which will work unless you get a major surge that essentially kills it sooner than that.

There is an alternative. Original electrical equipment all had transformers in them. Transformers are natural surge protectors - which eliminate minor surges and substantially dampen large ones. The larger the iron core - the more ability to handle power and absorb/dampen a larger surge

Of course, transformers cost $'s per item, and larger transformers cost $$ or $$$ each. They are bulky and heavy too.

A transformer does not slowly degrade. It can absorb/dampen almost an infinite number of surges without degrading its ability - to the point that the electrical insulation breaks down (either an extremely massive surge - typical of a direct lightning strike on your house/commercial building wires; or just ageing of insulation. There are transformers still in service after more than 100 years of use that are doing just fine.

Now you can also add some electronics to further dampen the surge (which are not CMOS based - and more expensive than CMOS chips).

I installed a commercial wired into the power circuit to the boiler 20 Amp transformer based surge protector manufactured by "Zero Surge" (I actually purchased it from a reseller under the resellers brand name: it would have been cheaper to buy direct from Zero Surge (and I believe that reseller has gone out of business).

https://zerosurge.com/

I should never have to worry about surges to my Vitodens 200, except caused by the light switch that powers the boiler receptacle, and the on/off switch on the boiler.

I also have a number of the "plug in" boxes around my house to protect a variety of things (computers, TV, etc). Not cheap; just permanent peace of mind.

Then there are UPS's. Most UPS's sold do not condition the incoming power much (some have CMOS based surge protectors); and in fact during normal operation connect your device to normal line voltage (with or without whatever surge protection they have). These units then switch to a battery back up generated voltage pattern (square waves are common) after power is loss. Your equipment actually sees a momentary fraction of a second loss of power & associated voltage spikes (surges). These UPS's will also not protect you from mild brown-outs or mild bright ins due to the lowering or raising of the voltage by 10-15% which can occur in utility systems. They will often just pass though 100 - 140 Volt AC, and changes within that, and not be bothered at all on how that affects your equipment. Your electronics will probaly not run the best with square wave input power (which is what most UPS's output as its the cheapest to generate from DC).

There is a premium UPS which is know as a double conversion pure sin wave output UPS.

These double conversion converts ALL incoming power to DC, then reconverts the DC into a pure sin wave output at exactly the correct voltage. These UPS's totally protect you from incoming power fluctuation, surges, and your equipment never looses power - not even for a fraction of a second as long as these UPS's have adequate battery capability.

In my opinion: You are looking for double conversion pure sin wave output UPS's to get the kind of protection you really want.

I was able to purchase some used commercial double conversion pure sin wave output UPS's which also had addition battery cabinets that could be connected for more storage capability (search the internet for used UPS's - this equipment is out there (including the exact used equipment I purchased over a decade ago used).

For my Vitodens 200 the base conversion cabinet holds 4 12V batteries (operates at a nominal 48 V DC), with 4 cabinets each holding 8 12V batteries (36 batteries in all). It should run my Vitodens and the Taco 007 F5 pump for almost a week with new batteries, and at least 2 days with 4 year old batteries.

The batteries do need to be replaced after about 4 years; which is somewhat costly.

I live in a small community that sees power interruptions every year - and loosing power for a day seems to occur every 5 years of so. In my life I've seen major storms kill power for several days at least 3 times in various places I've lived. So my house should be safe from freezing if I'm traveling and the power goes out.

I hope this all helps you folks who are looking to do things right.

Perry

psb75

Perry,
You just submitted an excellent 'treatise' on EXACTLY the information I needed. And...for the same brand and model of boiler--Vitodens 200 WB2B. I have a 2011 vintage. In service for 10 yrs. and just replaced a control board due to an obvious surge event. It all took place during the recent the holiday. Parts were "rare" and "precious" to acquire (esp. w/ "limping" common carriers) from the east coast. Tech support was barely available. And this is in south east MI--a seeming Viessmann "desert." We have two Viessmann boilers on our farm. The other is a 2013 222F.
Your posts make me feel a little less like an outlier for being attracted to the engineering and reputation of a venerable boiler mfg. company.
Thank you Perry and "kudos" to HeatingHelp.com forum!

Jamie Hall

Just as an aside (I love derailing threads!) -- as one goes up the scale in high end audio equipment, one is more and more likely to find that the power supply has a transformer as the first stage. Low end equipment and consumer grade equipment, including most televisions (do they still call them that?) does not. Really high end stuff may have power transformers weighing upwards of 10 pounds -- a lot of iron. So, curiously, it is more important to protect your cheap stuff than that $$$ power amplifier!

MaxMercy

Jamie Hall said:

Low end equipment and consumer grade equipment, including most televisions (do they still call them that?) does not. Really high end stuff may have power transformers weighing upwards of 10 pounds -- a lot of iron.

Picking nits, but they actually do have power transformers even if they aren't the 10lb chunks of iron and copper - the difference is that in modern equipment, they run at 15Khz or higher, not 60hz. Transformers are much more efficient and will require far less ferroresonant material when designed for high frequencies. Since our line frequency in the States is 60hz and similar frequencies around the world, they must first convert the line voltage to DC (hot side), then "chop" it into high freq AC to feed the transformer to provide secondary voltages (cold side) as needed.

The tradeoff for efficiency is that modern switch mode high frequency power supplies are easily damaged by a power surge or they just flat out fail as electronic circuits are wont to do, something that rarely happens to the low frequency power transformers as long as they're properly sized for the application.

Higher end stereo receivers still feature big 60hz power transformers, although there's some movement towards newer switch mode supplies for efficiency.

Skyline

PerryHolzman said:

However, one of the very reasons I purchased a Viessmann Vitodens 200 in 2006 was that it was supposed to have been designed for the long term - and it was a pricey boiler at the time (50%+ higher cost than several other common mod/cons of that time).
I've sure got a different view of how I would do things differently if I do have to replace it someday - or if I move or build new.

Perry

Thank you Perry for your post... I've learned a lot about boilers, surge protectors and UPS.

While your post pretty much knocked off the shine from my Viessmann and UPS, generally my boiler setup, there are things that I can change.

Like getting a ZeroSurge surge protector for the UPS. The primary purpose is to protect the UPS from surges and the boiler after the UPS as well.

My three month old Vitodens 222F has a long way to go to show signs of breaking down. The stainless steel Inox-Radial heat exchanger probably won't last as long as the older, "316T (T is for Titanium) heat exchanger".

There isn't much I can do about the boiler at the moment, just wait until the it starts to show the signs of breakdown. The chances are that it may not take 7 - 8 years, since there are probably more "cutting corners" in the 222-F from year 2020. While I am capable to do mechanical and some electrical work, the price of the parts will probably be prohibitive for doing it myself.

It's still hard to believe that under the covers, the "Cadillac of the boilers" isn't much different from a run of the mill condensing combi-boiler. It remains to be seen, if the 222-F outlast the other boilers. If it does not, the replacement certainly will not be a Viessmann boiler...