Bryant/Dunkirk near boiler piping

expert219

I'm new here and new to steam. I run a one man shop and have plenty of experience in residential split sytem HVAC. Until a few years ago I had never gotten the opportunity to work on a steam system so my experience there is extremely limited. I recently installed a Bryant BS2 boiler (Dunkirk PSB with a different color cabinet) in an apartment building. I currently have it connected to the existing wet returns and Hartford loop just to get them some heat. I don't care for the existing set up and plan to repipe the equalizer, hartford loop, and wet returns after Christmas. As well as adding main vents to the east side of the building. The venting or lack there of is a story for another day. My question is about the Hartford loop. My manual clearly says that the tee (I'll be using a wye) should be 6" below the boiler waterline. Everything else I've ever seen about the Hartford loop usually says 2". Not sure if this is a mistake in the manual or what? I want to get this right because I'm on a mission to make this system work better than it ever has and slash the landlords gas bills.

expert219

ethicalpaul

2" or 6" below the waterline doesn't matter. You just don't want it at the waterline.

Please give them a main vent not another day, but today. It will make all the difference. And skim the boiler. And send us pictures. You'll be the local steam pro in no time.

expert219

Thanks for the info @ethicalpaul . I have already added one vent on the west side of the building and have it piped to accept a second vent on that side. Steam parts are hard to come by in my area. I have three more Gorton #1 vents on the way from supplyhouse.com. It appears that there never was a vent on the east main so I intend on adding two to that side when I do my repiping as there is no good place to put them in the current set up. I know there is not much steam heat in my area but I would love to be the go to guy around here. Based on what I regularly see from other shops in the area that shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. I have done hours and hours of skimming and have the boiler pretty clean at this point. Thanks again for the information.

ethicalpaul

Nice. Get https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/the-lost-art-of-steam-heating-revisited and you're on your way

JUGHNE

Many comments made here about the Dunkirk side tapped boilers highly suggest or insist that both side outlets be used.
A tee on each side with CO plugs allow for wand washing and skimming. You need to use a 1 1/2" reducer at the skim port to force all sections to float oil to the top to float out the skimmer.
The internal top section nipples are smaller than the 2 1/2" port.

Provide clean out ports on both sides of the return sections, again for wand washing.

expert219

Thanks for the great info @JUGHNE !

nicholas bonham-carter

Gorton #1 vents are a little small for most situations, unless you have height restrictions between the ceiling, and the pipe.
A good low pressure gauge, (0-3 psi), will show you when the venting is adequate, by showing the back pressure during the venting phase.
Generous main venting will allow the supply pipes to fill first before steam begins to rise up to any of the rads.—NBC

Ironman

The Dunkirk manual for their PSB model has the same diagram, yet for the PGB it shows the traditional 2" below the water line.

It might be worth a call to ECR to find out why.

expert219

I knew I came to the right place for answers. Thanks for all the help guys.

expert219

@nicholas bonham-carter What type of main vents would you recommend? I looked at the Big Mouth vents but I can buy 3 Gorton #1 main vents with 3/4" threads for the same price as one Big Mouth.

The Steam Whisperer

The big mouth flows about 2 cfm at 1 ounce pressure. The Gorton #1 flows about 0.33 CFM at 1 ounce pressure. The Gortons have the added advantage of a float to help slow leakage from the vent if the system overfills. However, if the vents are located in an area where water damage won't occur, I"d rather use a vent with no float so if the system overfills, The water will leak out of the vents in the basement before it starts leaking out of the radiator vents.

I agree, don't follow Durkirk's instructions regarding the skim fitting... that 2 1/2 tee needs to be reduced where the skimming happens in order to skim all the sections not just the end section. Their instructions have been wrong for decades now.

KC_Jones

expert219 said:

@nicholas bonham-carter What type of main vents would you recommend? I looked at the Big Mouth vents but I can buy 3 Gorton #1 main vents with 3/4" threads for the same price as one Big Mouth.

It takes 5-6 #1 vents to equal a big mouth, it takes 3 #1 vents to equal a Gorton #2.  It’s not about the price, it’s about the cost per capacity.

Some good information here about the subject.

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/balancing-steam-systems-using-a-vent-capacity-chart/

expert219

@The Steam Whisperer and @KC_Jones thanks for the great information. I've been servicing and installing residential split systems for 23 years and just recently ran across a few steam systems for the first time 2 years ago. I'm finding this site very helpful. I've learned more about steam in the past week than I ever knew. Now I'm hooked! Thanks again for all the helpful information. I love getting knowledge from guys who know what they are doing.

Bomba

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Gorton #1 vents are a little small for most situations, unless you have height restrictions between the ceiling, and the pipe. A good low pressure gauge, (0-3 psi), will show you when the venting is adequate, by showing the back pressure during the venting phase. Generous main venting will allow the supply pipes to fill first before steam begins to rise up to any of the rads.—NBC

Just curious, what does “by showing back pressure during the venting phase” mean? 

nicholas bonham-carter

The back pressure is a measure of how easily the air can escape from the mains, through the main vents. If you had only radiator vents, and no main vents, the pressure would have to rise to push the air out of their little orifices, and the first radiator in the line on the main would get heat first, then the second etc.
Whoever was in the farthest room might freeze.
With generous main venting, the steam fills the mains all along its length, before any steam begins to rise up to all the radiators simultaneously. This assumes there are no over large vents on the rads which will upset the balance.
“Vent the mains quickly, and the radiators slowly”—NBC

AdmiralYoda

@nicholas bonham-carter I've read once that along with generous main venting it is good to vent the radiators as quick as you can WITHOUT causing an imbalance.

I have MoM radiator vents and have been tinkering with larger orifices.  I have mostly 6's, a 5, a C, and a D.  It's working great!  The radiators heat up much faster than they used to and are very well balanced.

I used to have Ventright 1A's which are tiny compared to the MoM vents I'm using.  I guess it all comes down to a little experimenting in the end.