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Would changing radiator remedy lack of heat?

2

Comments

  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Ah I see, thanks @JUGHNE so I guess the convector is the part they will be changing. It's considered the radiator?
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,248
    If the hammering stops you may get more heat out of it...maybe.
    But quiet would be nice, huh.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    OK @JUGHNE this is the bedroom radiator and valve, it's even colder in this room by at least 4 degrees. Noise is presently at minimum and water shooting out has stopped for the time being. Too soon to tell if it's fixed, but it's COLD.



  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    And @JUGHNE this is the valve in the living room
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    I hope these pictures work @JUGHNE and that you can see them...
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Yes, it sure would @JUGHNE but the hammering stopped for a few days now, but it hasn't gotten any warmer :neutral:
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,248
    The pipe nipple on the valve looks like it would drain back thru the valve. Then the vent end must be higher to drain.
    Just imagine water inside all this and how it will drain back down the riser pipe going to the valve.

    If all the things we discussed are OK, then the problem is somewhere else in the building.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Wow @JUGHNE OK I'm kind of following you and I THINK I understand what you're saying, so I will try to raise these issues with the plumber. It's just very hard, they don't listen when I say anything, and I can't really back up what I suggest with real knowledge, but I will give it a try. I appreciate you taking time out to help arm me with more information. I do feel like I have a better understanding of what's going on. *sigh*
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    quick question @JUGHNE, why do you think the water stopped shooting out when the super changed it to this different type of valve?
  • I suspect the boiler for the whole building is not keeping a constant temperature , but more likely Is being set back at night.
    This will make your problem worse, if your steam arrives so slowly.—NBC
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,510
    SandiT said:



    this is a picture of the radiator in the living room @JUGHNE

    @Steamhead
    What do you think of this?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Do you think it is the boiler even if everyone else has their regular very hot temperatures @nicholasbonham-carter ? Apparently this problem is isolated to my unit.
  • Maybe your two posts should be combined to reduce confusion here. Would that be a good move Erin?
    The first clue to a system wide problem is the water coming out of your air vent. A properly balanced system should have the steam arriving at each radiator on a floor simultaneously. There should be no noise or water from the vents, or from the pipes.
    The thermostat or other means of control should maintain a constant temperature, with no setbacks. This will yield the greatest comfort, often with a slightly lower temperature setting.
    Your baseboard radiator is not the best choice for use in a steam system, as it doesn’t hold the heat as long in between boiler firings, so if they want to change the radiator, ask for the one with the most cast iron made, so it has more thermal mass.
    The air conditioner in the same space is not helping either as it will obstruct the air flow.—NBC
    SandiT
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,784
    edited December 2020
    you said you had good heat (too much) your first year?
    correct?
    and that the AC was there the whole time?
    On windy days do you feel draft thru that ac?
    is there a exhaust or fresh air option that isn't closed?

    I'm wondering what else may have changed,
    have neighboring apartments been renovated ?
    maybe something done elsewhere has created your issue.
    what floor are you on ?
    apartments under you ?
    known to beat dead horses
    SandiT
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    OK @nicholasbonham-carter I will try to make one post with the pictures from both rooms. I appreciate your explanation and will keep it with me. Thing is, they used a different type of vent this time and the water has stopped shooting out for the time being. The noise started again in the bedroom, but stopped suddenly after I wrote mngmnt an email. Then they tell me they want to change the radiator bc of noise 3 days later anyway. But the main problem at the moment is still not enough heat, and at times the radiator and valve are cold. It is so uncomfortable in my apt. Running portable heaters is barely doing the job. The problem is not enough heat is coming out of the radiators in combination with very faulty, drafty windows. A/C no draft. Right now the thermometer reads 75 degrees with portable heater running which I just don't understand. If it was 75 degrees I would be almost perspiring. How can the thermometer read 75 when it FEELS 64?
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    Hey @neilc no draft from the a/c, draft from windows. Yes, it's been here the whole time. First winter the apt was very comfortable.

    So my neighbor's heat on most of my floor who I have asked are all comfortable with their heat. Ppl on other floors say the same. MANY people say it's too hot. The apartment immediately next door to me is never available to question.

    I am on the 4th floor, the ppl downstairs say their heat is fine, answered their door in short sleeves and shorts last year when I asked. The ppl upstairs didn't answer door and didn't call me when I left a note. HOWEVER the plumber last year did tell me that the pipe burst upstairs which he repaired, but when I told management and the board they denied he said that. Feels like there's not much I can do, it's me against this whole movement of ppl that work here.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    LIVING ROOM (looks crazy but no draft coming from a/c)




    BEDROOM (this room is even colder)





    @nicholasbonham-carter
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Sooo my next door neighbor texted me and asked me if I have been having problems with the heat. So she has been having similar problems with hammering noises and they changed her vent, but now she is not getting enough heat either. She lives to the left of me on the same floor. Would anyone know what this might mean???
  • mikespipe
    mikespipe Member Posts: 41
    ask the super to check the pressure setting on the pressuretol.. it should be about 1psi I suspect it is set much higher. also the posts saying the convector must drain back to the valve are correct . also make sure the valve is fully open
    SandiT
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    Thanks so much @mikespipe the building is sending a plumber on Tuesday to change one of my radiators, I've been told by several ppl on here there's not much hope in that department, but I will definitely tell him what you said!!
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,784
    SandiT said:

    Sooo my next door neighbor texted me and asked me if I have been having problems with the heat. So she has been having similar problems with hammering noises and they changed her vent, but now she is not getting enough heat either. She lives to the left of me on the same floor. Would anyone know what this might mean???

    look at what you just wrote,
    changed the vent and the good heat stopped,
    management is putting super slow vents on,
    which "could" help slowing the hammering,
    but is killing the air removal from these rads,
    and if the air can't get out, the steam can't get in,
    Ask for, demand, to try an adjustable vent that you can tune to your situation,
    keep your neighbor involved.
    and as mike said, what's that pressure set to?
    yeah, I know, they aren't gonna tell you

    known to beat dead horses
    SandiT
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
    edited December 2020
    I suspect their main venting is inadequate, and the radiator vents were venting the entire system. When you slow a radiator in such a system, down, it gets heat last.—NBC
    SandiT
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,784
    yeah,
    but we can't get in the boiler room
    known to beat dead horses
    SandiT
  • AdmiralYoda
    AdmiralYoda Member Posts: 666
    I didn't read all the comments and I'm no steam pro so your setup is foreign to me.

    One thing you said was "the thermostatostat says it's 75 in here and it's cold!  If it were 75 I'd be perspiring!  How can the thermostat read 75 when it clearly isn't???"

    I may have paraphrased a bit....but has anyone checked the thermostat?  Do you have any other reliable thermometers around to measure the temperature?  Perhaps you could get a digital one from the hardware store and place it next to your thermostat to see how accurate it is.

    Where I'm going with this....I've had two thermostats fail.  One in my home and one in my parents.  They were the digital type and they were warm to the touch!!!  I don't know what was going on inside but they were generating their own heat.  So the thermostat thought it was 70 but the room was really like 60.  Replaced the thermostat....good to go.

    The older mechanical ones can be troublesome too.  I'm not too familiar with them but being level is very important and there is an adjustment inside where if it isn't set up right can also throw things off.

    Not sure if this was covered yet....just another thought.
  • motoguy128
    motoguy128 Member Posts: 393

    I suspect their main venting is inadequate, and the radiator vents were venting the entire system. When you slow a radiator in such a system, down, it gets heat last.—NBC

    ... and if the total venting rate is lower, pressure goes up, some vents may stop working and the system short cycles on pressure control, which in turn could cause some condensate issues.

    It’s sort of like having a car thats fouling spark plugs constantly and managements solution is to keep changing the spark plugs, and they also suggest replacing the transmission fluid. The plugs are a symptom that there’s a fueling and or timing issue, gap issue, wrong plugs possibly but changing them is fixing nothing. Transmission has nothing to do with it at all.

    “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.
    SandiT
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,248
    She does not have a thermostat, I believe these are references to thermometers.
    SandiT
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    Do you think my vent change can affect the neighbor as well @neilc? I had an adjustable vent before and they just kept changing them over and over and over again. :/ But I haven't had good heat at all. The water stopped shooting out from the vents when they put this new strange vent on.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    I just spoke with the neighbor and she said she thinks it's just that they have lowered the heat to save money. I don't think that is the case though. There has been too much malfunctioning from the radiators.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Sorry @AdmiralYoda I don't have a thermostat I'm just using a small room digital thermometer thing I bought on Amazon. So are you saying that something could make it say 71 when it feels 61? So how can I get an accurate reading of the room? When the super has come in with their laser gun thing taking the temperature it would read 72 or 74 but it FELT colder yet there's nothing building's department can do unless those temperature takers give him a reading under 68 which would feel like 58. My neighbor said it was 55 in her bathroom. I don't know what she used to measure, but I believe her.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    Really good way of putting it @motoguy128 this all helps me when I have to speak to these people. Yes, they keep changing the spark plugs over and over and over again. This time their changing the radiator itself, I've been told by a steam specialist I called listed on this site that it's doubtful it will work.
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,784
    No,
    you both have these slow vents,
    and you both aren't letting the air out as fast as before,
    and the steam doesn't come in as fast, and you are cold.

    you said it yourself,
    they changed the vent(s),
    and now the heat doesn't work like it used to.
    known to beat dead horses
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,510
    edited December 2020
    @SandiT
    Let me help with a little perspective that’s  been touched on but not elaborated:
    When the boiler isn’t firing and making steam, the pipes and radiators are filled with air from the vents being opened to the atmosphere. When the boiler begins to make steam, it can’t get out of the piping and to the radiators unless the vents allow it to escape back to the atmosphere. In a one pipe system like yours, there are vents on the large steam mains, vents on the risers and vents on each radiator (convector in your case). All of these vents have to be properly sized and functional so that the steam reaches each radiator at about the same time and everyone gets balanced heat.

    Once vents begin to malfunction, or someone begins changing them indiscriminately, then the system goes out of balance. Some places get cold while others overheat. Again, the proper venting rate must be maintained for each part of the system.

    If too large of a vent is used on one radiator, main or riser, then other parts of the system won’t get steam or won’t get it at the same time. Changing a neighbor’s vent can effect your heat.

    The way management has been changing vents around there has thrown the system out of balance and it will never be right until all of the venting is addressed.

    Having a steam pro come in and evaluate the entire system and make corrections would fix most every issue as well as save an enormous amount of fuel - probably at least 30%. But as long as they keep letting amateurs who think that they’re experts mess with things, the problems will only continue. 
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SandiT
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    OK yes, but the lack of heat and hammering noises started first, then they started changing the vents over and over again. Does it still mean the same thing @neilc ?
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,784
    SandiT said:

    OK yes, but the lack of heat and hammering noises started first, then they started changing the vents over and over again. Does it still mean the same thing neilc ?

    everything Ironman said
    and remember I asked about the boiler room?
    (and I know your answer, no go.)
    without knowing that pressure, which if high, could well be the hammering, and issues with vents going bad, repeatedly,
    and what may have been good venting originally has been slowed down, intentionally, or by blunder, , , ,
    the slowed venting for you and your neighbor may have slowed your steam, and lessened the hammering for you and next door.
    I will bet the hammer shows up else where, and the folly will continue.
    gotta get in the boiler room, steam starts there.


    known to beat dead horses
    SandiT
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    Wow @Ironman, amazing, thank you! So it's likely that the superintendent changing the vents to these different type of vents he used could have affected my neighbor's heat. It's amazing how complicated it gets when they don't know what they're doing, but insist they're experts. The entire building management and maintenance refer to him as the heating expert bc he's being doing it for decades apparently. Explains why he tells me I'm imagining the problem until I started sending videos to management. So the plumber coming Tuesday to change the radiator/convector will A. likely not work B. cause problems for other tenants as well.

    I would love to tell them exactly what you said, but honestly, I could talk until I'm blue in the face. The super giggles and the building doesn't listen to me at all. At all. I can write email after email, they dismiss my suggestions particularly when it's something astute from one of you guys.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    edited December 2020
    Is this how they keep their jobs, @neilc, just deferring problems all over the place? I wonder if my neighbor having a similar issue while less severe might make it more of a priority for them. In a co-op apt building, unless 20 ppl are having the same issue, it almost doesn't exist for them. Huge mistake moving into a big complex like this. A problem with the heat can be ongoing for 2 years straight and disrupt daily life w/o ever resolving the issue. You have no rights whatsover, unless you can pay for them.

    I'm going to try to tell them what you said. The problem is they will follow up with something I and won't be able to answer. I will make a valiant effort though and write some of this stuff you told me down.
  • SandiT
    SandiT Member Posts: 87
    neighbor thinks they are just not giving us enough heat, she thinks they are trying to cut costs. i can't imagine it's that simple. she thinks the radiators malfunctioning is a sepárate issue. told me that she called her upstairs neighbor and asked about the heat, she told her that the heat is less strong but it was too hot prior so she's fine with it which does lend some credence to her theory that they're skimping on heat. it's amazing that they they can have different temperatures in everyone's apartments, and faulty windows, yet the buildings department can't issue a violation.
  • We have seen some non-expert steam men reported here, who, when challenged about a faulty boiler installation, will say, “I’ve got 30 years experience, doing it that way.”
    What is really true is he has 1 year of experience, 30 times over, learning nothing each time!!
    The management may well have reduced the heat, by installing a new heat control, claimed to solve all system balance problems, and save fuel.
    These replacement controls will only work properly if the system is in perfect balance-Catch-22–NBC
    SandiT
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,230
    SandiT said:



    this is a picture of the radiator in the living room @JUGHNE

    Is that even legal???
    mattmia2
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,510
    edited December 2020
    @SandiT
    It's really not that complicated when you understand that it operates as a SYSTEM and it must be diagnosed and repaired as a SYSTEM, even if it's just replacing one vent.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.