Bled all radiators twice and still air in the pipes!

Connie_Q

Hi all,

The building owner has had two HVAC folks come and according to them, they bled all radiators (supposedly) in an 1899 Brooklyn Brownstone to eliminate air from pipes in the wall that Garden apt tenant (me) is consistently hearing. It sounds like gushing, gurgling, and toilet bowl dripping sounds. The sounds ebb and flow but it is always constant when heat is on.

The first HVAC guy bled the radiators from the boiler and looked defeated after the sounds continued. Basically, he said it was beyond him. He left and that's the last we heard from him. He had 5 stars on Yelp.

The second guy bled all the radiators and this time suggested there was a problem with the expansion tank not working properly and that it's holding some air in it and the air and water are making weird noises together. According to him, it may be too small for the boiler  but he didn't sound reassuring. New expansion tank and some pipes= $$$$.

It is a two boiler system for a three story brownstone with a sub basement where the boiler is located. As the tenant, I don't have access to the boiler. No one can tell me clearly what the problem is. Either two, 5 star yelp plumbing and heating guys can't bleed radiators properly or problem is more complex than they let on or can articulate.

Can you please give me some advice on how I should be thinking through this issue and what questions you would ask of the next heating guy who may come over and try their luck? If you know any reliable technicians in NY, please advise! Please help!

Jamie Hall

As or heating pros in New York, try @JohnNY -- Gateway Plumbing.

I suspect that just bleeding may not be enough -- it may need a thorough purge, which is a different beast -- or there may be other problems.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Bleeding radiators removes air from the radiator, but if there's trapped air somewhere else in the system, it won't do any good.

Power purging the entire system is what's recommended, but you have to have a certain valve/drain configuration.

Demand access to the boiler room and take some pictures of the piping around the boiler.

@JohnNY is a contractor that knows his stuff. Maybe he'll pipe in.

hot_rod

Is there a central air elimination device? There needs to be an auto vent to keep working after the purge. A power purge brings cold water with dissolved air. Heating the water drives air out, and the purger does the final removal.

JohnNY

Bleeding radiators is what people do when they don't know what to do.

Connie_Q

@hot_rod as far as I know there is no central air. No vents in my apt and none in the backyard

Jamie Hall

Connie_Q said:

@hot_rod as far as I know there is no central air. No vents in my apt and none in the backyard

He's referring to an air elimination device on the heating system plumbing -- it can be confusing.

STEVEusaPA

Yelp...****

EdTheHeaterMan

Connie_Q said:

@hot_rod as far as I know there is no central air. No vents in my apt and none in the backyard

Not Central Air (conditioning)

Central or large main air elimination device, But Connie does not have access to the boiler room so he won't know the answer to that.

Connie_Q

I'm not sure that exists. is that a problem for a power purge to be successful?

Jamie Hall

Connie_Q said:

I'm not sure that exists. is that a problem for a power purge to be successful?

No -- but if there isn't one, then air may build up in the system again later.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Yes. Purging wont eliminate all entertained air in a system, just the bubbles. 

Engrained air comes out of the water as its heated, and will (should) be automatically vented through the boiler's main air purger. There are piping arrangements that can hinder this, and of course the automatic air vent can be fouled/missing/closed. 

There are no air bleeders on your radiators? 

Ironman

What kind of radiators do you have? Standing cast iron? Baseboards? Panel rad's?

Please post some pics.

Connie_Q

Connie_Q

these can't help articulate the problem. And, no, there are no bleeders on the radiators. It's bigger than that. Water constantly flowing in pipes in walls (nonstop). I am the first person in 10 years, supposedly, to notice and complain about this. You should assume there has been air in the pipes for several years

Connie_Q

I feel like I'm living with the pipes

Ironman

Unless you can get access or info about the boiler room, there's not much else that you can do or that we can recommend - other than getting the owner to find a good hydronic contractor.

Try the contractor locator above.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Just for clarification those are fin-tube baseboards. They generally have no bleeder as it's just a copper pipe with aluminum fins. 

Canucker

It's possible that the pump is too large and you're hearing the velocity noise but @Ironman is right, unless you can get into the boiler room, there's not much else you can do

Connie_Q

got it. I'm waiting for @JohnNY to get back to me so I have all the questions i need to make an informed request to the landlord. he is tired of throwing money at the problem after the first two hvac guys bled the radiators and couldn't solve the issue. and it doesn't appear the highest priority because i am the first person to complain, which i understand

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

You sound like a nice guy, but I would encourage you to be the squeaky wheel. Landlords have been known to forget about tenant's discomforts.

Connie_Q

ok, I think I'm going to get John Cataneo to do the job and he said he will fill the system and get rid of the sounds

Jamie Hall

Connie_Q said:

ok, I think I'm going to get John Cataneo to do the job and he said he will fill the system and get rid of the sounds

Let me put it this way -- if he can't, I can't think of anyone else who could even get close.

seattlepioneer

<<The first HVAC guy bled the radiators from the boiler and looked defeated after the sounds continued. Basically, he said it was beyond him. He left and that's the last we heard from him. He had 5 stars on Yelp.>>

Give the guy credit ----he was honest with you.

After considering the issue for a long time, I finally dec ided what was most important when looking for a service provider of almost any kind.

#1 Honesty
#2 Competence

There are lots of other things that are less important.

Honesty is the MOST important!

136lin

I believe it was Dan that taught: If you remove air from a radiator(s) and still get no heat, it is not air that is the problem. I have found the cause to be, among others, a worn out impeller on a circulator so that the it sounds like it is working but actually it is having little or no effect , or a water starved system due to a plugged PRV, water line , a plugged BFP or some other cause. Without access to the boiler room no one can diagnose the problem. I have seen hot water systems that turned themselves into steam systems due to not having sufficient water supply and no low water cutoffs.

Grallert

I'm curious. How did the previous service people bleed the radiators. (convectors)? You mentioned that there are no vents on them. Sorry if this has been cover in this thread.

Connie_Q

@Grallert @Jamie Hall @Ironman @136lin @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes @hot_rod

Thank you for all your insight. The problem has been ameliorated significantly and the water sounds in the pipes in walls are minimal compared to what they once wore.

I never got the full brief of what was diagnosed and fixed but when I asked the guys what they did when they left, they said they had to install a brand new air vent for the boiler system because the previous one was completely shot. That's all i know but maybe it was that easy!