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TKjr2 heat issues
Comments
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Yes. It’s two separate circuits mixing at the closely spaced Tees.
Again, the heater will require a much larger circulator. You can try using the Taco 011 that you have for that.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Careful, Carl and Alan will yell at you for suggesting something so ludicrous even though it's correct.Ironman said:Yes. It’s two separate circuits mixing at the closely spaced Tees.
Again, the heater will require a much larger circulator. You can try using the Taco 011 that you have for that.
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When you say 2 closely spaced tees how far apart are these.. if I have to rework my system I want to do it only ONCE0
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A circulator with a pump curve that goes from 0-32 is not designed to run at <2GPM. It is best practice to run a circulator in the middle 1/3 of it's range. Running in the 10% on either extreme is not a good practice and will lead to premature pump failure, decreased efficiency and poor performance.
If you repipe it primary/secondary, the 0011 will be moving more like 5 GPM on the boiler side. I would not consider it a perfect selection for that loop but it will probably get the job done."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
The tees should be as close together as you can. with straight pipe on either side.MR_P_BODY said:When you say 2 closely spaced tees how far apart are these.. if I have to rework my system I want to do it only ONCE
These make it easier to install and purge.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=purge tee?searchText=purge+tee"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Careful, Carl and Alan will yell at you for suggesting something so ludicrous even though it's correct.OK - let's show it one more time. No yelling involved.
We know you're going to use that 0011 because it's an expensive pump, you don't want to have to buy another one and it gets the job done. I probably would too. At this point, it's a learning tool.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab1 -
Please notice the piping detail that for the Tees that I posted. You want to keep them as close together as reasonably possible since the common piping between them is where mixing takes place, but do not exceed 12" apart.MR_P_BODY said:When you say 2 closely spaced tees how far apart are these.. if I have to rework my system I want to do it only ONCE
If you wanna use a pre-made component, the Webstone Tee that Zman posted a link for simplifies it. The valve in the middle is strictly for purging. It MUST be left open during system operation. The common piping between the Tees has to be AT LEAST as large as the largest pipe.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
In this system that I am running what is the designed pressure for it run at.. just wondering if I am running to much pressure0
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Hydronic systems typically operate between 12 -25 psi, depending upon elevation. Use a 30 psi relief valve and a fill valve set to 12 psi if the floor is at or below boiler height.
However, for purging a radiant floor, 40 - 60 psi house pressure should be used unless you have a pump cart. Each loop should done independently with the others valved closed.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
OK.. I'm not sure what the pressure is(the pressure side of my gauge doest seem to be getting a proper reading.. I took the pressure off the system yesterday and the gauge still read 45 psi.. do you guys have any brands that you like0
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What happens if I'm running more pressure(like 45psi).. not sure if the gauge is reading correctly YETIronman said:Hydronic systems typically operate between 12 -25 psi, depending upon elevation. Use a 30 psi relief valve and a fill valve set to 12 psi if the floor is at or below boiler height.
However, for purging a radiant floor, 40 - 60 psi house pressure should be used unless you have a pump cart. Each loop should done independently with the others valved closed.
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Well I'm gonna have to get a new gauge.. this one isnt working right0
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Any standard boiler gauge will work.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Another question... when you are purging the system are you running the circulation pump
thanks0 -
You can reference the chart all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've never played with one of these units and know that the chart is extremely conservative and unrealistic. Is the 011 ideal? Of course not. But an 008 won't push these loops more than .2 GPM piped direct as this is. The curve and pressure drop chart will tell you otherwise, but having worked on dozens of this exact same system with a variety of circs, it is a verified fact. The 011 is not hurting anything at 45psi, and going from 13 to 10 ft of head by switching to P/S is not going to quadruple the flow rate.Careful, Carl and Alan will yell at you for suggesting something so ludicrous even though it's correct.OK - let's show it one more time. No yelling involved.
We know you're going to use that 0011 because it's an expensive pump, you don't want to have to buy another one and it gets the job done. I probably would too. At this point, it's a learning tool.0 -
Are you talking to me or Alan... I'm getting a bit confused who your talking to.. I think part is directed to me but I'm not sure... understand I am GREEN to this so for my simple mine it has to be simpleGroundUp said:
You can reference the chart all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've never played with one of these units and know that the chart is extremely conservative and unrealistic. Is the 011 ideal? Of course not. But an 008 won't push these loops more than .2 GPM piped direct as this is. The curve and pressure drop chart will tell you otherwise, but having worked on dozens of this exact same system with a variety of circs, it is a verified fact. The 011 is not hurting anything at 45psi, and going from 13 to 10 ft of head by switching to P/S is not going to quadruple the flow rate.Careful, Carl and Alan will yell at you for suggesting something so ludicrous even though it's correct.OK - let's show it one more time. No yelling involved.
We know you're going to use that 0011 because it's an expensive pump, you don't want to have to buy another one and it gets the job done. I probably would too. At this point, it's a learning tool.
Thanks0 -
These comments are mostly directed at Alan and Zman who have never dealt with these systems, yet are making suggestions based solely on a chart provided by Takagi which I know firsthand to be false. Also Zman's theory of quadrupling the flow rate by reducing the head loss only 20% when keeping the 011 solely for the primary loop is ridiculous. The bottom line here is that you should have this piped primary/secondary with 1" pipe. Since it's been made clear that is not happening, you simply need to purge the air from the system and run it as-is with your 011 and wait until it dies. It will work fine, until it doesn't. The 011 will never pull air out of solution at 45psi or even 10 psi if the system has been properly purged.MR_P_BODY said:
Are you talking to me or Alan... I'm getting a bit confused who your talking to.. I think part is directed to me but I'm not sure... understand I am GREEN to this so for my simple mine it has to be simpleGroundUp said:
You can reference the chart all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've never played with one of these units and know that the chart is extremely conservative and unrealistic. Is the 011 ideal? Of course not. But an 008 won't push these loops more than .2 GPM piped direct as this is. The curve and pressure drop chart will tell you otherwise, but having worked on dozens of this exact same system with a variety of circs, it is a verified fact. The 011 is not hurting anything at 45psi, and going from 13 to 10 ft of head by switching to P/S is not going to quadruple the flow rate.Careful, Carl and Alan will yell at you for suggesting something so ludicrous even though it's correct.OK - let's show it one more time. No yelling involved.
We know you're going to use that 0011 because it's an expensive pump, you don't want to have to buy another one and it gets the job done. I probably would too. At this point, it's a learning tool.
Thanks
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I stand corrected. I have never installed a water heater as a radiant boiler so I am not aware of the "new math" that applies only to water heaters in hydronic heating systems. Now that I am aware of this new math and the conspiracies being propagated by the engineers at Takagi, I completely agree that this system is piped perfectly and that if everyone involved would just accept this new information as fact everything will be OK.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein
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Can you send me a drawing of what you are suggesting... is putting a second pump on make the system a pri/sec system ..trying to figure this stuff out
thanks0 -
@Zman I'd be happy to see your "old math" prove that a 20% reduction in head resistance would quadruple the flow in this system. Please, share with the class.
I have no interest or intention of arguing with either of you, but I will not stand back and allow false information to be slated as fact to someone simply asking for help. We all know that pressure drop and pump curve formulas are inaccurate when dealing with this type of radiant, otherwise an 007 would flow ~1 GPM in any 250ft loop of 1/2" and we know this is an unattainable flow rate. How inaccurate, cannot be calculated (to my knowledge) and must be left to field experience to determine what's realistic.
As for your passive aggressive attempt at sarcasm, anyone with the ability to comprehend bold print can clearly see that I mentioned several times this is not piped properly and will not perform as a boiler would. It will "work", however, once the loops are properly purged. Reducing the size of the circ to an 008 (as Alan suggested) will not make it work any better.
It is in our professional nature to reference the specs we have been taught and use them as fact. When real world experience proves those specs wrong time and time again, it is evident that they are false. I completely understand the desire to base claims off of spec, but as someone who has personally dealt with this very thing many times, I can verifiably state that the specs are false.0 -
For what ever reason it didnt take my "quote".. so I will try again...does anyone know the wall thickness on the 1/2" pex tubing.. trying to find the total volume of liquid for purging purposes0
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1/2" pex holds .92 gallons of fluid per 100 feet of tubing, but that ought to be irrelevant for purging purposes. You purge until the fluid runs air-free, this may take 5 gallons or 500 gallons. If using a pump instead of domestic water, both suck and drain from the same bucket- nothing goes down the drain.0
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I understand that I run it till its air free... I want to get a idea in time per X gals per minute.. and the .92 is very helpful.. also as I askedGroundUp said:1/2" pex holds .92 gallons of fluid per 100 feet of tubing, but that ought to be irrelevant for purging purposes. You purge until the fluid runs air-free, this may take 5 gallons or 500 gallons. If using a pump instead of domestic water, both suck and drain from the same bucket- nothing goes down the drain.
before can you give me a drawing to the pri/sec so I can see if I can hook it up on what I have.. thanks0 -
Google has tons of information on primary secondary piping. Yours would end up something like this, ideally
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@GroundUp said:You can reference the chart all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've never played with one of these units and know that the chart is extremely conservative and unrealistic.I service a few jobs that use an on-demand water heater coupled with a Taco X-Pump Block which has two Taco 008 pumps. When there's a call for heat, the pumps come on and the on-demand heater fires.
It's not as restrictive as you think. It seems that they may have changed their HX design and made it less limiting.8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
The X-block has separate 008s for the "primary" and "secondary" loops. That I'll happily agree with. Originally, you'd suggested replacing the 011 with an 008 and leaving it piped direct; that's what I disagreed with.@GroundUp said:
You can reference the chart all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you've never played with one of these units and know that the chart is extremely conservative and unrealistic.I service a few jobs that use an on-demand water heater coupled with a Taco X-Pump Block which has two Taco 008 pumps. When there's a call for heat, the pumps come on and the on-demand heater fires.
It's not as restrictive as you think. It seems that they may have changed their HX design and made it less limiting.
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The X-block has separate 008s for the "primary" and "secondary" loops. That I'll happily agree with. Originally, you'd suggested replacing the 011 with an 008 and leaving it piped direct; that's what I disagreed with.All I'm saying is that an 008 will overcome the pressure drop of the Takagi HX. You don't need anything larger.8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
The drawing that I previously posted should be easy to follow, though it doesn't show every component for the sake of clarity.MR_P_BODY said:
I understand that I run it till its air free... I want to get a idea in time per X gals per minute.. and the .92 is very helpful.. also as I askedGroundUp said:1/2" pex holds .92 gallons of fluid per 100 feet of tubing, but that ought to be irrelevant for purging purposes. You purge until the fluid runs air-free, this may take 5 gallons or 500 gallons. If using a pump instead of domestic water, both suck and drain from the same bucket- nothing goes down the drain.
before can you give me a drawing to the pri/sec so I can see if I can hook it up on what I have.. thanksBob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
After looking at bunch of designs I figure a simple and easy way to go is a 1 pipe design.. all I would have to do is add a circular pump and the short tee.. let me know if this will work.. thanks guys you have been a big help0
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Would this pump be right to do this type of job on the one pipe
design
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Grundfos-59896341-UPS15-58FC-3-Speed-Circulator-Pump-1-25-HP-115-volt-4701000-p?gclid=CjwKCAiAlNf-BRB_EiwA2osbxZG_MmJA9NPs2yqG3RcUhr5g01QSEUu0sAX5cyJNPdUQS1tX0a2LBxoC-LoQAvD_BwE0 -
Absolutely not!
A monoflo system is for radiators that have little or no resistance to flow. The Tees have to be spaced apart as wide as the radiator is. Your loops are 250'. How do you plan on spacing the Tees that far apart? Even if you could, the resistance of the tubing in the floor would still be too great to induce flow.
The p/s design that we've given you is the only correct method for what you've got.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.3 -
Ok.. I will have to look at that set up again0
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That's p/s which is what I posted in my drawing. The only difference is that this drawing has multiple zones and you have one.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
I thought I have 3 zones... the tubes hook up to 2 manifolds(in and out but I only have a single circ pump so I dont know what
you want to call it.. here is a pic
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It has 3 in and 3 out.. I thought that was 3 zones0
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No, that's 3 loops on 1 zone. The manifold is one set (supply and return). You have one thermostat and one zone circulator and control. That's one zone.
The drawing posted show three zone circulators for 3 zones.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Ok... thanks for the info.. I had it wrong all along then0
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