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Pipe steam boilers to manufacture spec?

ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
edited October 4 in Strictly Steam
Finally I was able to run the experiment I’ve been thinking about for over a year!

Is the manufacturer piping spec good enough?

https://youtu.be/4IymyZB4wlI

1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
Precaudted_pNew England SteamWorks

Comments

  • PrecaudPrecaud Member Posts: 341
    Excellent! My hunch has been, this is what you would find.
    1950's Bryant boiler in a 1-pipe steam system at 7,000 ft in northern NM, where basements are rare.
    ethicalpaul
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,191
    Nice!! One thing that needs to be taken into consideration. Not all manufacturers specs are created equal. Take a look at the Burnham IN6 for example. If memory serves me correctly, the manufacturers specs allow for over 40 fps. Peerless and WM are considerably less. 
    ethicalpaulDanny Scullyted_p
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    Thanks @STEAM DOCTOR, and that is a great point.

    Do you feel that Burnham's IN6 fps rating is too high? I do see from their documentation that the IN4, IN5 and IN6 all call for a minimum of a single supply at 2" for all steam pipes.

    That does seem...optimistic
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,191
    I know it's too high. I have seen many In6's with wet steam symptoms. Just my findings.  I had a friend who had  his contractor bringing in his own people for all types of work. Radiation load was IN6 size Contractor wanted to install IN7. I told him that he is better off with IN7. At least this way he could force him to pipe with 2 2" risers and 3" header. Contractor of course used 2" header with single 2" riser. I had homeowner show the manual to the contractor. Contractor was forced to repipe.  
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    I completely believe you! I was a little shocked to see the same requirements for all those sizes.

    Nice job looking out for your friend
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,257

    I know it's too high. I have seen many In6's with wet steam symptoms. Just my findings.  I had a friend who had  his contractor bringing in his own people for all types of work. Radiation load was IN6 size Contractor wanted to install IN7. I told him that he is better off with IN7. At least this way he could force him to pipe with 2 2" risers and 3" header. Contractor of course used 2" header with single 2" riser. I had homeowner show the manual to the contractor. Contractor was forced to repipe.  

    Yeah but.........they still have an oversized boiler?
    Wouldn't it have been better to do an IN6 with two risers?

    Or, I suspect, if it was mine I'd probably do an IN4 or 5.....
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • ted_pted_p Member Posts: 63
    edited October 5

    Nice!! One thing that needs to be taken into consideration. Not all manufacturers specs are created equal. Take a look at the Burnham IN6 for example. If memory serves me correctly, the manufacturers specs allow for over 40 fps. Peerless and WM are considerably less. 

    There are wide variations of steam velocity in the risers, using the manufacturer's minimum recommended piping, even among boilers of the same series, from the same manufacturer.

    Compare the steam velocity in the risers for your Peerless 63-03L with the minimum recommended piping, with that of the Peerless 64-08 (which is really the same boiler with more sections; IDK why they change the series designation when they go from the 6 to 7 section models).

    The steam velocity in the single 3" riser of a 64-08, with the minimum recommended piping, is 46.1 fps; that piping would have to be doubled, to two 3" risers, to get the velocity down to something comparable to the 23.6 fps that Paul's 63-03L gets with the minimum recommended single 2" riser.

    It would be interesting to see the same experiment done on a 64-08 with two, 3"risers. I think there's a good chance that when the valve is closed, changing from two riser to one riser operation, you would see some droplets of water being carried up the riser, even with the water level at the "normal water line". Not that I'd expect it to be anything that a properly-piped header wouldn't easily separate out, which BTW is what is what a header is for.

    None of this takes anything away from @ethicalpaul's experiment, which richly deserves an AWESOME!!! There's nothing like getting to see with our own eyes, things that we could previously only imagine and visualize. And I do agree with Paul's underlying premise, that a reputable manufacturer's minimum piping recommendations are good enough to keep you out of trouble, if everything else is done right.
    ethicalpaulSTEAM DOCTOR
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,191
    ChrisJ said:
    I know it's too high. I have seen many In6's with wet steam symptoms. Just my findings.  I had a friend who had  his contractor bringing in his own people for all types of work. Radiation load was IN6 size Contractor wanted to install IN7. I told him that he is better off with IN7. At least this way he could force him to pipe with 2 2" risers and 3" header. Contractor of course used 2" header with single 2" riser. I had homeowner show the manual to the contractor. Contractor was forced to repipe.  
    Yeah but.........they still have an oversized boiler? Wouldn't it have been better to do an IN6 with two risers? Or, I suspect, if it was mine I'd probably do an IN4 or 5.....
    That wasn't an option. No way I could have made the contractor (and his associates) pipe above manufacturers specs 
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    Thanks @ted_p! I would sure love to talk to a Peerless engineer about their thinking and/or findings regarding those different steam rates on their various boilers (or any manufacturer's engineer about same).

    And thank you for your awesome velocity charts, they are great
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    STEAM DOCTOR
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,257
    Let's keep in mind the velocity spec in the pipe is about carrying water upward instead of letting it fall back. Not sure how bad that is, if you have a proper header. Maybe it's actually fine?

    But it doesn't say anything about whether it will pull water out of the boiler. That's determined by the velocity through the opening in the boiler, how close the water is to that and other goings on near it.

    There's a lot more going on than just velocity in the riser.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    I agree @ChrisJ there are many variables. The only way to know for sure is for me to buy a much bigger house that needs a new boiler :lol:
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    mattmia2New England SteamWorks
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,315
    Very nice Paul!! A picture is worth 1000 words.

    Just a note though, Keeping the water form going up the main distribution pipe is very important but also too much water in the riser could "kill the steam"

    What I would like to see in a video sometime is with a boiler that requires a header larger than the rises size (say a mfg called for 2 2" risers and a 2 1/2 In header wit 2" boiler tappings) what would happen if the riser size was increased to 2 1/2" risers as soon as they come out of the boiler?

    Something we have debated here for a while.
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    Thanks @EBEBRATT-Ed— yes I agree water isn’t great in the risers/header. I should see how much it kills the steam—maybe I can meter the condensate to see if it does.

    But note that no water appeared until I raised the water level above spec.

    see this second video where I really raised it: https://youtu.be/MhUM2vRyGBE
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    Precaud
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,191

    Finally I was able to run the experiment I’ve been thinking about for over a year!

    Is the manufacturer piping spec good enough?

    https://youtu.be/4IymyZB4wlI

    Great install and a great video.
    ethicalpaul
  • New England SteamWorksNew England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,356
    Awesome work Paul!


    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    Thanks @Intplm. and @New England SteamWorks not just for the nice comments, but also for all your (and everyone else's) help here on HH over the last few years!
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    An NYC building manager commented on my video ( ) asking if a drop header is allowed by NYC code. Does anyone know? I thought some boiler manuals showed it as an option but I don't know the code.
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,149
    edited October 9
    @ethicalpaul NYC is weird but I don’t think they have issues with steam piping. I did a EG75 with nice big 4” drop header in Brooklyn a few years back and the only thing the inspector complained about was the absence of steam siphons aka pigtails because I piped a commercial type water seal. So I put the pig tails on and he passed it. Redundancy at it best!!
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,865
    Wow that’s a good story, and weird! I assume you’ve trained the Cedar Grove inspector so he won’t question my seal. He will just freak out about the glass
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,257

    Wow that’s a good story, and weird! I assume you’ve trained the Cedar Grove inspector so he won’t question my seal. He will just freak out about the glass

    Na, he won't freak out.
    He'll just say "I don't think so Tim" and fail you.

    :p
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ndende Member Posts: 19
    Interesting, I had no idea you could use such a port on risers, cool experiment for the hardcore steamer.
    ethicalpaul
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,315
    Personally, I don't usually put drop headers in. But that being said anyone who asks if it is a problem doesn't know much about steam
    ethicalpaul
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