Shoddy Mitsubishi install? Or should I chill out?

MichaelG

I recently moved to a house with a gas furnace but no AC. I met with many contractors and eventually decided on removing the existing system and replacing with a mitsubishi mini-split system. The system consists of a 3-ton outdoor unit, branch box, and two separate ducted air handlers indoors (1.5 and 2.0 tons). I chose this system for three main reasons - 1) all electric (no burning HC's for fuel); 2) very quiet condenser (almost imperceptibly quiet); 3) separate zone for cooling upstairs where most of the heat load is without having multiple outdoor units.

I felt confident with the system design as well as with the contractor I chose - Mitsubishi Diamond, NATE, very nearly 5 stars on Google with many reviews going back years.

The install seemed fine for the most part - pretty professional, they were able to tuck equipment into some pretty tight spaces. All my special requests were honored in terms of layout. They sent one experienced installer and one first-year apprentice and it took five days to complete the job (an electrician also showed up on day 5).

On the last day they encountered trouble getting the system to start up. This system uses the MHK2 wireless redlink tstat and while the upstairs air handler connected fine, they couldn't get it working downstairs. Without a tstat connected, the unit does nothing. After 2+ hours, it was almost 8pm and they gave up. The installer said "someone will probably call you on Monday". Great! Half an AC system working after 1 week.

I'm an engineer and experienced electronic technician by trade, so I went downstairs and reviewed all the manuals after they left last night. It's not a terribly well-documented machine but overall it's not that complicated. I know nothing about refrigeration line installation but the wiring side of things is easy for me. I eventually determined that the branch box, which handles proportional distribution of refrigerant to the various indoor units, had not been properly addressed. A dip switch SW1 on the control board needs to be set to on for each indoor unit connected. It looked like someone had mistakenly turned SW4-1 and SW4-2 to on, rather than SW1. I powered the unit off, set the dip switches correctly, boom all was working. I felt good about myself for fixing it, but a little concerned if something this basic was messed up. This company seems to do mini-splits frequently, but perhaps not this exact hardware?

Today I woke up and went around taking note of various details of their installation. I came upon the following issues (see photos):
1. The lineset is PDM US Gelcopper. This is being run inside and out. At first glance it's a nice product, but google "Gelcopper leaks" and there's seemingly a lot of bad reports of pinhole leaks in this product developing after 2-3 years. It only carries an 18 month warranty. It also is advertised as being UV-stable for 5 years, but I know that getting flexible white plastic to survive the life of a lineset in the sun is going to be tough. The manufacturer's own datasheet suggests painting it and shrouding it in some type of duct for outside use. There is also at least 1 large gap in the insulation in a vertical section outdoors.
2. The data wiring from the branch box to the outdoor unit, per the manual, calls for a shielded 2 conductor 16AWG wire. What was used by the installer is plenum rated 16AWG 2 conductor unshielded indoor rated wire. It's being run outdoors.
3. The AC wiring from the electrical panel through the crawlspace to the unit was run along the floor of the crawlspace in certain areas.
4. The condensate pump power cord is hanging out in the breeze .
5. The linesets and UF cable running to the outdoor unit are cinched down tightly with zip ties in many places, distorting the insulation and likely reducing its R value.

My question for the experienced members of this forum:
Which of the issues above should I bother bringing to the attention of the contractor when the call on Monday?

I'm concerned about the long-term reliability of the lineset, and am wondering how to protect myself from the risk of future pinhole leaks developing in this product. I'm concerned the UV resistance of the lineset and data wiring is insufficient on its own and should be encapsulated in some way. It's seems that the data connection is working fine with unshielded wiring, but I feel the installation manual should have been adhered to. I'm disappointed that I need to tell these people that romex shouldn't be laying on the floor. But on the other hand, the system works (thanks in part to me).

Photos of some areas of concern:

EBEBRATT-Ed

The electrical work looks sloppy

icy78

Maybe they get to be Diamond contractors based on sales rather than installation and commissioning expertise. 

clammy

I won’t comment on the line set you can internet it and read about the issues and what they say is the cause but I can say that a lot of sub work that I do I have notice a lot of and especially mini split line sets coming w a 10 year warranty and some standard pre insulated line set that a lot of supply house sell ,personally I purchase un insulated and insulated my self .as for the electric when ever doing mini splits I use south wire rubber coated bx ,some smart inspectors won’t allow the tray wire to be ran through the home , the tray wire is not approached for such a installation ,only to be used outside and directly into the unit not snaked and ran as or similar to thermostat wire . I know this because years ago I failed a inspection and had to change out the wire live and learn . Now I just use the south wire no hassle no worries . The dip switch error is possibly some thing they missed but being a diamond dealer u would figure they would have caught it but we are all human and no one knows it all and just because they missed that is no means to start nit picking at least I would think . Mitz are my first choice in mini splits ,I ve been installing them forever and have had very minor issues and have found most of the electronic fairly priced and the tech service where excellent . Best of luck be sure to keep the indoor filters clean and have the outdoor coil kept clean and clear or litter . Peace and good luck clammy

GW

Maybe strike a balance point, if your standards are higher than normal, and you did not express that fact in the very beginning, you’ve got four fingers pointing at you. You probably don’t wanna pick a fight with your installer. The systems are complex and not every Tom **** and Harry wants to work on the systems.

As a Mitsubishi dealer, I can attest, setting the dials and dips on the branch box is a joke. Whoever wrote the manual and designed the numbering system on the dials, poor design and translation. I finally typed myself a small narrative and how to do it, keep the notes in my phone. 

Communication wire, that seems like a legitimate concern. Our vendor sells this special wire, it’s green, not that the color makes a huge difference.

zip ties, yes, chill on that one.Romex on the floor, that doesn’t seem cool. I could not pick up the details from your pictures, the Romex is lying on the floor by itself or is it zip tied to the line set? Zip tying it to the line said it’s pretty routine in our part of the world.

good luck with the new system, I did not catch what part of the world you’re from, but pulling our fossil fuel and installing heat pump, could be a little bit of an aggressive move. I hope your house is nice and tight.

Gary 

MichaelG

Thanks to everybody's input. I'd rather be posting about a more upbeat topic but it's good to have some people on here with experience to ask these questions to.

@GW - we live in Portland, OR. Especially with hyperheat, it should be total heat pump territory, but I see tons of houses still with gas furnaces. We have a great gas fireplace for backup if the power goes out, but the house is well sealed.

I sounds like I should request that the romex and other wiring be cleaned up - I can't imagine a AC wiring job where not one wire staple was used, but that's the case here. The romex is indeed running on the ground and through the air in those photos - no attachment to joists or studs.

I will also bring up the comm wire issue. It should be shielded and outdoor rated.

I will give them a pass on the zip ties, even if my personal preference would be to use something better suited for outdoor use and that doesn't compress the insulation.

I will not make a big deal about the dip switches issue. An honest mistake and perhaps not every installer has a technician's brain for troubleshooting that type of thing. It's not like they didn't set the switches, they just set the wrong ones. I agree the documentation sucks.

Now the most important question - does anyone think I can get these guys to provide some sort of written statement that if the 18mo warrantied lineset they chose to use (even though 10yr warrantied is easily obtainable) fails due to corrosion, as has been documented extensively online, they will cover its replacement cost (parts and labor)? It's not their fault the product may be flawed but it's their choice to use it, not mine. If someone had asked me up front if I wanted to pay them extra to get a way longer warranty, I would have obviously said yes.

I also noticed the lineset mfr states the following about outdoor use, which has not been adhered to:

MichaelG

Thanks for everyone's comments.

@GW we're in Portland, OR and the house is well sealed. We have a great gas fireplace as backup heat if there's ever a problem.

The lineset issues reported online have me concerned that I should try to get something in writing that corrosion problems down the road (2-3 years seems to be the reported failure interval) that lead to system leaks in the line itself will be covered by the installer, parts and labor. I didn't choose this lineset and even though it seems like a nice product at first glance, the 1.5yr warranty tells the real story. I didn't choose this but had I been given the option, I would've easily preferred to pay more for the peace of mind of the 10yr warranted lineset.

I am also concerned that it was run outside without following the mfr's own policy on outdoor use:

GW

Yes we stopped using that stuff this year. We have installed miles of that stuff. We have had six or so jobs leak (out of hundreds) That’s a tough one.

GW

OK so Miles was a small exaggeration, 14,140 feet. We switched to black lines a little over a year ago.

Ironman

MichaelG said:

Thanks for everyone's comments.

@GW we're in Portland, OR and the house is well sealed. We have a great gas fireplace as backup heat if there's ever a problem.

The lineset issues reported online have me concerned that I should try to get something in writing that corrosion problems down the road (2-3 years seems to be the reported failure interval) that lead to system leaks in the line itself will be covered by the installer, parts and labor. I didn't choose this lineset and even though it seems like a nice product at first glance, the 1.5yr warranty tells the real story. I didn't choose this but had I been given the option, I would've easily preferred to pay more for the peace of mind of the 10yr warranted lineset.

I am also concerned that it was run outside without following the mfr's own policy on outdoor use:

I agree with GW's assessment.

However, I think your expectations of the installer warranting the line sets is not reasonable and probably not even legal. Let me explain: equipment and materials are guaranteed by their manufacturer, not the contractor. Our contracts and invoices clearly state this. The contractor only guarantees his labor and work. That's only reasonable.

Second, just because there's info on the net that some have had trouble with a certain product doesn't mean that it's inherently true or that you have a high risk that you will.

Third, contractors are often limited to what their distributors carry and that may have been the only type readily available, especially with the covid situation where there's a shortage of materials.

Forth, the problem seems to have been limited to one brand: PDM. We have told our distributors that we don't want that brand, but they buy in bulk from many sources where they get the best price quote and it could be any brand at that moment. We've also put in thousands of feet of the gel packs, and to date have not seen any leaks.

If you think I'm being protective of the manufacturer, you're wrong. There's a thread on here and one on HVAC-talk where a rep tried to give an unacceptable explanation for the failures and I challenged his explanation and repeatedly ask for a reply which has yet to come. But, were it not for the Internet, I would have been unaware of any issues with it. Your contractor may not be aware of it.

As far as lineset covers go: they're not cheap and are optional, not a requirement. I always offer them as an option, but the homeowner has to decide if he wants to pay extra for them. I'm sure if you would ask your installer an offer to pay the extra cost, he would install them.

MichaelG

Ironman said:

I agree with GW's assessment.

However, I think your expectations of the installer warranting the line sets is not reasonable and probably not even legal. Let me explain: equipment and materials are guaranteed by their manufacturer, not the contractor. Our contracts and invoices clearly state this. The contractor only guarantees his labor and work. That's only reasonable.

Second, just because there's info on the net that some have had trouble with a certain product doesn't mean that it's inherently true or that you have a high risk that you will.

Third, contractors are often limited to what their distributors carry and that may have been the only type readily available, especially with the covid situation where there's a shortage of materials.

Forth, the problem seems to have been limited to one brand: PDM. We have told our distributors that we don't want that brand, but they buy in bulk from many sources where they get the best price quote and it could be any brand at that moment. We've also put in thousands of feet of the gel packs, and to date have not seen any leaks.

If you think I'm being protective of the manufacturer, you're wrong. There's a thread on here and one on HVAC-talk where a rep tried to give an unacceptable explanation for the failures and I challenged his explanation and repeatedly ask for a reply which has yet to come. But, were it not for the Internet, I would have been unaware of any issues with it. Your contractor may not be aware of it.

As far as lineset covers go: they're not cheap and are optional, not a requirement. I always offer them as an option, but the homeowner has to decide if he wants to pay extra for them. I'm sure if you would ask your installer an offer to pay the extra cost, he would install them.

@Ironman Thank you for your response and for your perspective. I understand the statement that the contractor is not responsible for warranting parts. It's a difficult situation and nobody really wins.

For the record, the PDM Gelcopper (the brand you don't like) is what was installed in my house. It's clear there have been QC issues with it. Others know this first hand. Maybe they're solved, maybe not. Let's hope so.

I wonder if you would consider this side of things - I as customer saved up to afford the best quality system I could purchase, with the intention of not having to think about this sort of thing for years to come. I attempted to have it installed by the best installer I could find. I used all the information available to me to make an informed choice about the equipment I was buying and who I was buying it from. At no point did it occur to me that I would choose a top shelf product that carries a ten year warranty, but be personally liable for the choice made unbeknownst to me by them to install the system I selected in conjunction with a product that carries a warranty 6-7 times shorter, that has a bad reputation in the industry. Are customers really supposed to take a magnifying glass to something like that prior to signing a contract? I understand what the fine print says, but if in 3 years our hvac starts to fail and eventually goes out because of pinhole leaks in the copper, I can't understand why that should be the customer's responsibility. I'll say again, if I had been asked to pay extra for "the black stuff" aka Mueller Streamline, which everybody seems to really like, I would've absolutely done so.

Ironman

Mmichael, I hear where you're coming from; it's not falling on deaf ears. I'm one who tries to bend over backwards for my customers. However, none of the ancillary components in your system carry a ten year warranty: the Honeywell stats carry a five year; most all others carry one year. I'd never heard of a lineset carrying ten years until this post. Imagine going to a car dealer and buying a new car. When you get it home, you start googling about it and find that some of that model seem to have a slightly higher than normal hose failure rate because a certain brand of hose was used on some of them. You look under the hood and discover that yours has that brand. Are you then gonna expect the dealer to give you a longer warranty because he didn't know about that issue and ask you if you wanted a model that had a different brand of hose? Again, you assuming that the installer knew about the issues that SOME have had with PDM and that another brand was available. If he can't get the distributor or manufacturer to give a longer warranty, why should he be stuck doing so? Honestly, your statement about not using a magnifying glass to read any small print when you were diligent enough to research the product and the contractor isn't helping your cause. The contract is there for this very reason: to state exactly what's provided and what the warranty is for it. I'm closing on a property tomorrow and I can assure your that I've read the contract and disclosures several times. If I didn't and something comes up afterward that I didn't know was in there, that's on me. Again, I'm asking you to look at both sides and realize it's not fair to ask the contractor to warranty something that he didn't even make. Also, the black line sets tear apart much more easily and are far more susceptible to UV. They usually deteriorate in five to ten years in direct sunlight.

Ironman

I don't know what happened with the above post, but I put proper paragraphs and spacing in it.

GW

I have yet to find a reason or riddle as to why some jobs beak down (an extreme few have leaked, hundreds of installs, 6 or 7 leakers). My guess it there may be a chemical issue with the foam at the factory. When we have leakers, the copper gets a greenish tinge. When we do get a leaker, we just change the leaking line, not both lines, so it's my opinion it's not exactly environment, it's the tube/insulation and a bad batch.

GW

Bob we are buying 164' black sets with 'shiny' coating, not quite as tough as the white but still very tough to tear it. Much stronger than basic armalex