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Is this going to be a concern?

SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
edited June 10 in Radiant Heating
Hey guys and gals
I’m not feeling too comfortable how this contractor is putting this together. I know anyone’s work can be criticized but I’m not liking this set up and I have told the contractor. He assures me that this system will do the job.
Today his plumber put the two loops for the living room In floor heating (old hardwood floor ) on one pump. Shouldn’t he have at least put the two half inch lines off of a 3/4 line like a manifold of sorts.
I told the contractor that I was expecting manifolds he said electronic valve system would be more expensive.
Ouff Am I just a crabby client ?



Comments

  • CanuckerCanucker Member Posts: 613
    I've never worked with you so I can't say whether or not you're a crabby client. That said, based on the pictures and the previous posts, you're working with someone that knows how to connect pipe but doesn't appear to have much knowledge when it comes to hydronics.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    STEVEusaPA
  • lchmblchmb Member Posts: 2,991
    split supply out, single return back? And I dont see a way to shut each zone down to purge.. will it work, probably...will it work and be serviceable to it's best ability.. probably not..I'd want it redone..
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
    @lchmb the return will I think be the same as the supply. The return is going to be to the left of the supply
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
    edited June 10
    @Canucker , I am really not a crabby guy, but I do believe I am not feeling like This system is plumbed with hydronic Finesse
    I have agreed to a healthy fee . I don’t know how to rate this guys labour.
    With all my years of investigating hydronic I have never seen this type of work.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,205
    Looks like crap.
    steve
    SuperTechRich_49
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,412
    Well you can squeeze 15K BTU's from a half inch pipe so if both loops together exceed 15K, then the pipe size needs to be increased to 3/4", which will get you up to 35K.

    IMO it's just sloppy. Paint the plywood. Bring copper up to the ceiling. Keep the pex out out site.

    They definitely need to put isolation valves on the returns.
    ZmanSuperTech
  • heatheadheathead Member Posts: 101
    Do you really need all those pumps. Zone valves are much more cost effective in the long run. How many watts are you using just to circulate the hot water. I don’t know how much you would save. How many of those zones are going to be calling for heat how many hours a day. Hopefully someone can comment who knows more. Looks are one thing operating costs over the life of system should be the deciding factor. I don’t know what position this puts you in with your contractor or if you hired them directly. If you let them finish and then redo later. Or possibly pay more now and find someone to design a proper energy efficient system. I don’t know running cost vs more effective design cost plus change order.
    SuperTech
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 5,870
    There are quite a few issues with the design and workmanship. It is pretty obvious that you are not going to change this knucklehead. What he has constructed will likely heat the house, it is just ugly.
    I think I would just let him finish and repipe it later.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    Amaturis.
  • BillyOBillyO Member Posts: 199
    YUCK!!!!!!!
  • SuperTechSuperTech Member Posts: 1,344
    I would stop the work from continuing before anything else is bodged. Something like this is best done right the first time. You already know that it's not quality work, why live with it?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,500
    edited June 11
    what everyone else said about workmanship...
    This is a better way to split loops, avoid "bullhead" piping.

    Iso and purge valves.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,164
    @Synway . Are you or someone close to you doing this work?
  • The installed IBC boiler will appreciate that he piped it in a primary-secondary fashion. It just won't win any beauty awards.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

    Click here to learn more about this contractor.
    Synway
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
    @HVACNUT is isolation valves on the return to prevent flow when not needed?
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
    edited June 12
    @Intplm. plumber is not close to me. Just the contractor’s son.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,412
    edited June 12
    > @Synway said:
    > @HVACNUT is isolation valves on the return to prevent flow when not needed?


    The valves are needed to be able to purge each loop separately (interrupt the path of least resistance) and maintenance/ ease of service.
    It wouldn't kill them to also valve off the split supplies to make the loops truly isolated. Example. 10 years down the road a leak occurs in one loop. With the loops isolated you can close off the leaking loop and leave the other operational. The way it is now, you can't.
  • Are all 4 zones for radiant heating? If so, please consider that when some or all of the zones are on, the water temperature to the first zone pulling off the manifold will be warmer than the second zone and the second will be warmer than the third, etc.

    If only the fourth zone is calling for heat, it will get hot, undiluted water. This all affects response time.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

    Click here to learn more about this contractor.
  • unclejohnunclejohn Member Posts: 1,571
    My contracts say " all work will be done in a workman like manor". That means like a pipe-fitter would fit the pipe. Not like the homeowner would. I got a call to look at a gas line that was installed from the furnace to the new gas water heater. There were at least 10 couplings and the rest was nipples. I told him I would not have done it that way. I imagine it took longer then cutting to pieces of pipe.
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44
    @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes I had that conversation with him already.
  • SynwaySynway Member Posts: 44

    Are all 4 zones for radiant heating? If so, please consider that when some or all of the zones are on, the water temperature to the first zone pulling off the manifold will be warmer than the second zone and the second will be warmer than the third, etc.

    If only the fourth zone is calling for heat, it will get hot, undiluted water. This all affects response time.

    Yes that topic was raised with the contractor and I indicated I preferred this set up.


    And even today the plumber said these condensers work better the cooler the water is on the return. So why can’t he see the manual example supports his statement more than his work?
    Am I wrong?
    Do I want to hire another contractor to do what I wanted?
    Is it too late?
    Is there a difference?
    I can only say I think so.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,500
    Those look like bronze circulators? Is it non barrier tube?
    Without seeing a design, if there is one, it is tough to tell how it will behave. It the tubing matches the load calculation, Adequate flow rates to all the zones, I suspect it will perform ok.

    The schematic you posted would be the preferred piping.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    SuperTech
  • CanuckerCanucker Member Posts: 613
    > @hot_rod said:
    > Those look like bronze circulators? Is it non barrier tube?
    > Without seeing a design, if there is one, it is tough to tell how it will behave. It the tubing matches the load calculation, Adequate flow rates to all the zones, I suspect it will perform ok.
    >
    > The schematic you posted would be the preferred piping.

    It's AquaPex. You can read the label on the pipes in the bracket farthest to the left, if you blow the picture up. Sorry to see that @Synway , I really wish you would have been able to get someone that knows hydronics and not just how to connect pipe. All is not completely lost, as it will probably work, and by work I mean supply heat to your home, but it looks bad enough to make all of us question what this person knows and quite honestly, if it looks like it does, they probably aren't a very good plumber either.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    SynwaySuperTech
  • EzzyTEzzyT Member Posts: 995
    I would fire this contractor bring in someone who knows what there doing. Then threaten the old contractor with a call to the licensing board and a lawyer to demand your money back. If that does work then make those calls.
    Creative Solutions Plumbing & Heating LLC
    Lic #12683
    Co-Owners: Fred Drescher, Jr & Eliezer "Ezzy" Travis
    Marketing & Operations: Dawn Drescher
    201.499.0223
    Follow us on Facebook.
    Check us out on Instagram: creative_solutions519
    SuperTechRich_49
  • psb75psb75 Member Posts: 220
    He can sweat copper nicely and can crimp pex well--that's about it. His hydronic design concept leaves very much to be desired. Very much. Why bronze circulators? Because he used the wrong pex? (The returns do appear to have a purge system--so at least there's THAT).
    "Where did he get his ideas from? Why did he diverge from the boiler manual's recommendation?" Questions you might ask him.
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