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Can I get an review of my install pls

kensheets2
kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
edited April 2020 in Radiant Heating
Hello
First of all mucho credit to those who do this full time, working with this 3/4" stuff is like wrestling an alligator, holy crap!
Anyway if I could get an eval of work contain in this pic I would greatly appreciate it.
I laid it out as a two pipe reverse for cast iron radiators and I have ten more to do so I just want to make sure I got the first one right before I move on. This is the first location on this loop which has a total of 5 rads.
Main reason I'm asking is cuz of the Ts.
What is forcing the water through the rad instead of just taking the path of least resistance at the Ts.
PS, I know one of the rings haven't been crimped, lol

Thanks
Ken
«1

Comments

  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 642
    Picture did not show up, post it again.
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    Redid photo, thanks
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    Do you need enough flow at the emitters that you need 3/4 to the emitters? I assume you have a separate supply and return? That is what causes the flow. The pump is pumping in to the supply main and out of the return main.
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    edited April 2020
    The 5 rads are about 6500 BTU each, so 3/4" was probably overkill. Yes I have sep supply and return, they are run in series between the 5 rads in the loop. My install is shown in the pic attached in this message
    So ur good with the standard T shown there?
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,966
    You want all of those fittings buried under the floor?
    steve
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    Steve
    I guess I could have eliminated the two 90s with bend supports, but other than that I dont think I had much of a choice.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,096
    3/4" is right for the mains. You could go 1/2" to the rads if you wanted to.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    That shiny EVOH coating on the outside of the pex can cause some squeaking noise as it heats and expands. Oversized holes in the wood with pipe insulation donuts around the tube prevents any expansion noise.

    Or insulate the entire pex run and thru the holes also.

    Typically an 1-3/8 hole allows a bushing or foam insulation to fit around the tube.

    Might be a good time to address that, remove that coupling and tube, enlarge the holes?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    Doesn't the energy code require all of it to be insulated?
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    edited April 2020
    Yikes, the hole is 1/8 larger than pipe size, all piping is already installed and subflooring down with the exception of the areas below the rads which I intended to be removable by ways of a panel in the floor.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    You did a two pipe configuration like the old-time black and white pic ? Little risky (with Pex) if you did. One small air pocket can ruin your day.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    GW, not exactly like photo, the return went straight back to the boiler, identically like the supply is pictured there. Not sure what that extra leg is but I dont have that.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Ok so you home ran each rad, or you did continuous loop (one rad to the next to the next)? Ed mentioned “run outs”, which generally means more of a “one pipe” configuration.

    Also you did 1” holes? May creek some. Even with 1 3/8 (the general standard for 3/4 tube), the Pex is too curvy and expansion is greater than copper.

    If the noise drives you nuts you may need to do an outdoor reset control constant circulation type of thing.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    Gw,
    upon looking at my drawings, the old BW pic does look my my install. Is there another way of doing this, I didnt see other configurations, I only read that this was the best way to have a close to balanced system as possible.
    Yes I did use one inch holes, if this is going to be a serious issue I can cut out the floor boards and re drill the holes larger. I dont want the future homeowner to be annoyed by this or think the house has issues due to creaking.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Hmmmmm I really hate to be a nay sayer- my hunch is you’ll have problems.

    Noise- How miserable is it to install the rads and fire it up? You could intentionally get the boiler fully heated then let it rip. You will have your answer.

    And, if all the rads fully heat up I will be slightly surprised- the Pex isn’t straight like hard pipe- very hard to keep bubbles out of all the run outs. Sure, one (out of the pair) will fully fill with water but how to ensure the opposing run will not have a pocket; that’s the tough one.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    edited April 2020
    Gw, isnt the air eliminated at the vents at the radiators when u bleed off the air. I haven't researched the manifolds to much at this point but dont they traditionally have an air bleed on each line?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    I’d spend more time on noise mitigation, not air removal concerns
    Vents on the rads, a central air sep and 2-4 FPS velocity will assure air free operation
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Yes- filling the rads is cake, it’s ensuring the run outs are fully filled that’s got me wondering. Remember you’re not “power purging” (that’s my term, not sure what other guys say) with a hose like you do with a basic baseboard system (continuous loop). There’s a chance you may hang up on one of the run outs. You may not, but if it were me I would at least ensure all the run outs are pitching up and have zero humps

    I learned this lesson the hard way many years ago
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    Ok, so is the consensus a 1-3/8 hole. Or should I go larger, if I'm going to pull all this line out I want to do it right, ugg.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    It’s the plastic clips that make all the difference. I would double at the “ends” of the run and then every other joist if it’s more than 6 bays or so. Anywhere where there’s even a hint of torque or bend in the tube- I would well secure at each end of the “curve”

    here is what most heating guys use
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    You could purge each radiator individually with the right valving at the boiler by opening each radiator's valves one radiator at a time.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    May as well insulate all the lines, get two birds with one stone, insulation and noise isolators. Probably not much more $$ than insulator bushings. You want the heat energy moved into the radiator and space, not the joist bay :)

    It grows in length when heated, so be sure any branches are not tightly constrained on both ends. The insulation on your vertical risers would solve that movement noise also.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Hot Rod so drill 1 7/8 holes? Kinda big.

    Ken you’re good on making the holes bigger? Just need a simple jig

    Yes there’s a small trick if you get jammed and a run out hangs you on a bubble. You may not get jammed but if and when it happens it’s not fun
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 276
    Sioux chief, LPS, Oatey all make similar pipe insulators for 1/2", 3/4" and 1". All take 1-3/8" drilled hole. great with copper or pex. wouldn't do an install any other way
    Zman
  • BillyO
    BillyO Member Posts: 276
    If its not in budget, then you priced job wrong. Cost is pennies per
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    edited April 2020
    GW, thanks for your input and ur time, has been very helpful, I have gotten my head wrapped around pulling the pipe out and redoing, adding the insulators through the joists and so forth. It would Def have driven me crazy to hear squeaking caused by this. Only question is do u put the insulators on both side of the beam or just a single side? I had to go at an angle against the joists in a spot so the reg insulators will not work in an angled hole, so is there something I can wrap the pipe with to prevent the squeaking at these points?

    Hot Rod, In the Califfi PDF on Hydronic basics, the illustration for a 2 pipe reverse I believe it shows a balancing valve on each of the emitters, could that be the same thing as a TRV?, I was only planning on a union elbow on the return side but I can put a valve there if it is necessary (Old Cat Iron Rads)

    Thanks
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    I use an 1-3/8" drill as that is what these driven in type insulators tell you to use :)

    For insulation, 3/8" wall an 1-5/8 or 1-4/4" hole works.

    Key about 1-1/2" is you can drill that size hole anywhere in a TJI. In fact the pre-punched knockouts in TJI are 1-1/2"

    Refer to a hole size chart for drilling joists, usually the middle 1/3 of the joist, hole size depends on the joist depth dimension, mid-span, bearing point, etc.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    kensheets2
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Ken just one of those per joist. If you have a bunch of holes that lineup, straight as an arrow, you do not need to do every joist. But definitely at the ends. And definitely if it seems to be touching the wood.

    Hole At an angle, hard for me to comment, but it seems like you might want to set up some simple three-quarter inch pine or plywood jig, and send another hole right next to it to oblong it a little bit. Make sense? you kind of want to get a clip in there.

    Back in the day, when baseboard systems were king: when I was drilling holes, I would “pluck on the pipe like I was plucking a banjo string” . If the copper tube had much movement, (It actually would make a bit of a sound) I would clip it, if it was relatively stiff I would not, But always at the ends, and some of the middle, depending on total length of the run. (The middle is where I was plucking, to listen)

    Drilling holes straight, as basic as that sounds, one needs to pay a little bit of attention. I think I’m one of the few plumbing/heating guys that always carried a square in my toolbox/bag. In the truck, I had a regular framing square. The memories are starting to come back, I could go on and on.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    kensheets2
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    I used this Stabila laser hole shooter when we did fire protection and a lot of steel gas line work where the holes needed to be exact. Drill the first hole, insert, level or plumb and it projects the center of the next hole.

    I would drill across the entire building, even the rim joist to slide in 20 or 21' sections of pipe, cut or T-drill wherever we need a branch.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    BillyO
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Very cool, that will be nice for super long runs. Back when I built my office-shop building I drilled a 10 footer of 4” no hub into the side of the building, our basement has virtually no plumbing below the joists. Just a wee bit where I popped out of the adjacent shop slab, into the office basement.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    GW said:

    Very cool, that will be nice for super long runs. Back when I built my office-shop building I drilled a 10 footer of 4” no hub into the side of the building, our basement has virtually no plumbing below the joists. Just a wee bit where I popped out of the adjacent shop slab, into the office basement.

    You must have TJIs? A 4-1/2" hole would be pretty large for even a 2X12.

    The trick with 3 or 4" DWV thru joists is the 1/4 per foot grade you have to maintaining quickly moves the hole out of the middle 1/3 of the joist depth. For large holes and HVAC flex, the TJIs have a lot more flexibility for holes.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    I sure do, no normal person would drill traditional Lumber. When fighting pitch, nothing is better than 4 inch pipe.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • kensheets2
    kensheets2 Member Posts: 36
    GW, good stuff for sure.
    Hot Rod, any comment on the requirement for a valve on the return in addition to a TRV on the supply on a cast iron rad? Versus an elbow and trv?

    Thanks
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    edited April 2020
    I think we wore HR out, just kidding, here is what we do

    Speaking of which, if you wanna make this look nice and professional, you really should be popping out of the floor with half inch.

    If you want to be extra professional, you should be coming on the floor with half-inch copper, and the stubs should be long enough to reach the valves.

    Couplings are not fun to look at. I’m the biggest anti-coupling guy that walks the face of the earth.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    Some installers valve both supply and return. TRV on one side, a valve on the other side that could be an isolation valve and allow some flow adjustment,

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    I vote for a valve on both, ideally with waste, then you can remove a rad without draining the system and can run with it removed if necessary.

    The angled holes are probably from type of drill and bit/extension that doesn't fit through the joists. You can shoot a line with a chalk line if you aren't doing it every day and a laser doesn't make sense.(but a laser has huge advantages especially with obstructions and such).

    When they conneced my house to the city sewer for the vent for the kitchen they dropped a 2" galvanized pipe down through the roof and the wall from the roof, coupled it at the bottom of the wall, covered the hole in the roof with the flashing and covered the hole in the wall and the offset around the foundation with a corner cabinet. Also the answer to why my kitchen was always so cold.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,592
    Hmmm never seen a normal looking valve with a waste (drain), only see that on stop and waste, and ball valves. It would have quite the “utilitarian” look

    So, a valve on each side. Not extremely practical (unless you have the odd looking drain)
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    There are ones for european radiators that you can attach a drain fitting to, but not anything for a standard ci radiator unless you made a european valve work. Not sure certain styles of ball valves would look out of place with the right handle style and if you paint everything.
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 839
    @hotrod

    I don't know where to get the stabila HL 100 anymore? Sorry not trying to hijack thread, just curious. Or who else builds one like it?
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    Tom_133 said:

    @hotrod

    I don't know where to get the stabila HL 100 anymore? Sorry not trying to hijack thread, just curious. Or who else builds one like it?

    Looks like they discontinued it a few years back. Keep searching E-bay and used tool online suppliers.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream