Soldering question

hot_rod

lazy repair plumbers love this LaCo it really cleans dirty, tarnished tube and fittings well. Need to wet wipe or everything turns green.

Then RectorSeal is my go to flux. Try a few to see what fits your style. Box stores usually have real small sizes maybe 4oz or less.

GroundUp

Nokorode regular paste flux is what I use, but it's not as forgiving with dirty metal as Oatey 95 or the LaCo mentioned above

rick in Alaska

I use Nokorode cold weather paste because it is just easier to apply when it is cold out. I like Nokorode just because of its name. I cna flux a fittign and come back and solder it in an hour or more, and it is not turning green. Even f you leave it till the next day, it is still not green. I don't trust it after that long and will re-do it, but I would not be surprised if it still worked ok.
When I did fire sprinkler installations and we used copper in residential remodels, we used 95/5 solder. It heats easily and works well, but doesn't cap well like silver solder does.
When I started doing plumbing and heating work, I was introduced to silver solder and really like the way it looks when you are done. I do as many pre-fab joints with the pipe in a vertical position when soldering just so I can get that nice bead cap on the fitting. It just looks better. I have also used Sterling in the past, and if I remember correctly, it flowed easier than Bridgit does, and capped the same. I think I have just stayed with Bridgit just because it was more available, and I'm just used to it.
It's like a boiler; Personal preference, and experience with it.
Rick

pecmsg

Stay Brite #8 and flux.

Low temperature Silver bearing solder.

Expensive but does the job.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Any of the Nokrode is good flux. They have one that works better in cold weather, the regular stuff and my favorite that has bits of powered solder in it, its Tinning flux

If you look up the specs on solder 95/5 sucks and the reason is that it is liquid and solid at the same temperature you can't fill holes with it. Stay brite is the same way.

Stay brite #8 is a different story much better solid at 400 liquid at 450 or something so the in between say 425 it is semis solid and fills gaps better.

I like Silvabrite 100 works great seldom if ever have a leak with it

ChrisJ

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> Any of the Nokrode is good flux. They have one that works better in cold weather, the regular stuff and my favorite that has bits of powered solder in it, its Tinning flux
>
> If you look up the specs on solder 95/5 sucks and the reason is that it is liquid and solid at the same temperature you can't fill holes with it. Stay brite is the same way.
>
> Stay brite #8 is a different story much better solid at 400 liquid at 450 or something so the in between say 425 it is semis solid and fills gaps better.
>
> I like Silvabrite 100 works great seldom if ever have a leak with it

I ended up ordering the Bridgit based on opinions on here. Tho it's high temp does worry me.

I went with Nokorode tinning flux. Hopefully it'll handle the high temp of the Bridgit.

GW

I’ve been using utility flux forever never knew there was a difference in flux. Sometimes I’ll burn my flux brush- once you burn the brush you gotta toss it.

You may be burning the flux, try moving the heat around.

The newer lead free fittings are a pain, for sure. Gotta focus a bit more heat on the “brass”

There no water right? That’s one way to pull your hair out.

ChrisJ

> @GW said:
> I’ve been using utility flux forever never knew there was a difference in flux. Sometimes I’ll burn my flux brush- once you burn the brush you gotta toss it.
>
> You may be burning the flux, try moving the heat around.
>
> The newer lead free fittings are a pain, for sure. Gotta focus a bit more heat on the “brass”
>
> There no water right? That’s one way to pull your hair out.

Hi @GW

No, no water.
When I work on lines that had water I heat them before cleaning and flux to cook any water out. I got burned by that a few times and that was enough. That's an awful awful sound.....

GW

Yes water is a pain, different tricks needed

mattmia2

I second the tinning flux. it makes it harder to burn the flux out before you wet the surfaces.

with 2" you need a big torch to heat it all without burning the flux out before all of it gets hot enough to melt the solder.

lead free solder has a higher melting point than 50/50 so there is a much smaller window between where the solder melts and where the flux burns.

Is there any actual prohibition from using 50/50 on hydronic heating piping? Lead free solder is much more difficult to work with, why do we use it?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@mattmia2
far as I know 50/50 is fine for hydronics as long as you have a backflow preventer.

I wouldn't bother with it though Silvabrite is fine and you don't have any liability issues.

GW

Yes you can use 50 50 for heating. It was the standard (plumbing) in the 80s and prior. When 95/5 came around it took some time to get used to. Now- I need to be extra careful with 5050. I only use 5050 on plumbing drains and I try and grab it for zone valves. All else is silverbright, it really flows the best-better than 5050.

I believe 5050 costs much more too

ChrisJ

GW said:

Yes you can use 50 50 for heating. It was the standard (plumbing) in the 80s and prior. When 95/5 came around it took some time to get used to. Now- I need to be extra careful with 5050. I only use 5050 on plumbing drains and I try and grab it for zone valves. All else is silverbright, it really flows the best-better than 5050.



I believe 5050 costs much more too

Should I have went with Silverbright over Bridgit or are they very similar?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Never used Bridgit, most of the supply houses here have Silvabrite 100 and it works well. I am sure Bridgit is just as good. I looked up the specs and they look about the same. Temps are pretty close too

JUGHNE

ChrisJ, I believed you were talking about un-soldering some fittings. I believe I read a tip for that is to apply flux as you heat the old fitting....I might have tried...IDK how well it works.
One thing is once it loosens to keeping it moving as you pull on it.

ChrisJ

> @JUGHNE said:
> ChrisJ, I believed you were talking about un-soldering some fittings. I believe I read a tip for that is to apply flux as you heat the old fitting....I might have tried...IDK how well it works.
> One thing is once it loosens to keeping it moving as you pull on it.

I never tried flux.
The problem I had was any time I tried I had trouble getting it to move or come apart when I know it was hot enough. I think I got it too hot.

The thing I need to remove is a 2" to 4" CI hub adapter. I can't remember the name for it but I remember it being weird.

mattmia2

Is that one of those fittings that has a little ridge on it to caulk it in to the hub?

Try desoldering one of those paper thin tubes used in fin tube basebaord...

JUGHNE

Is that hub adapter leaded into the hub?
If so I would drill out the lead with a long 1/4" bit, dig the oakum out and then install a rubber donut to go to PVC.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

> @JUGHNE said:

> ChrisJ, I believed you were talking about un-soldering some fittings. I believe I read a tip for that is to apply flux as you heat the old fitting....I might have tried...IDK how well it works.

> One thing is once it loosens to keeping it moving as you pull on it.



I never tried flux.

The problem I had was any time I tried I had trouble getting it to move or come apart when I know it was hot enough. I think I got it too hot.



The thing I need to remove is a 2" to 4" CI hub adapter. I can't remember the name for it but I remember it being weird.

Copper to hub type cast iron?

It's called a caulking ferrule, or brass caulking ferrule.

ChrisJ

Apparently it's called a Manhoff. At least in some areas.

Gordy

https://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/extranet/files/plumbing literature/soldering lead-free brass tips and techniques.ashx?version=060620180422

GW

Never heard of that brand Chris.

Yes “manoff”, not sure of the exact spelling. You’re unsweating the 2”? The 4” is leaded in right?

I thought you were working a heating system thing.

If you overheated the fitting it’s quite possible to seize the thing. My memory isn’t kicking in well enough to know how bad that is- worse case I would sawzall the tube about 1/4” away from the fitting and then gently saw into the tube perpendicular, then heat it up and then chisel it out. That’s quite a pain and not easy to do if you’re not super comfortable with torch stuff

Applying flux as I solder——yes. That’s why I burn brushes here and there. If the flux burns (not the end of the world) you need to apply more. Not common but it happens especially with fittings that aren’t prefect or bigger stuff, or some water

mattmia2

if you start cutting the tube in sections you can peel it off cold too, it isn't that strong a bond of you kind of unroll it with pliers.

GW

Not sure we are taking the same thing- you can’t peel a soldered connection (unless it’s hot)

ChrisJ

> @GW said:
> Never heard of that brand Chris.
>
> Yes “manoff”, not sure of the exact spelling. You’re unsweating the 2”? The 4” is leaded in right?
>
> I thought you were working a heating system thing.
>
> If you overheated the fitting it’s quite possible to seize the thing. My memory isn’t kicking in well enough to know how bad that is- worse case I would sawzall the tube about 1/4” away from the fitting and then gently saw into the tube perpendicular, then heat it up and then chisel it out. That’s quite a pain and not easy to do if you’re not super comfortable with torch stuff
>
> Applying flux as I solder——yes. That’s why I burn brushes here and there. If the flux burns (not the end of the world) you need to apply more. Not common but it happens especially with fittings that aren’t prefect or bigger stuff, or some water

Mixture of things going on here, sorry.

The original post is for potable.

The Manhoff is a 2" drain line I need to modify and connect to new PVC I'm installing when I remove the 4" CI. I was told to unsolder the Manhoff and my first thought was "oh boy....."

GW

Yes gotta heat the manhoff up then the tube will just about melt its solder joint. Leverage is kinda key too, not sure how you’re grabbing the tube- do it wrong and it will not be a good time. Shoot a pic of you want specific guidance

mattmia2

you can pry/peel a joint apart cold if you sort of collapse and peel it apart such that you are only pulling a little of it apart at a time. sort of like the same way a lead or terminal will fatigue and break away the solder at the connection to a printed circuit board if it isn't strain relieved where it connects to a control or connector that gets stressed repeatedly(like a headphone jack or vga connector on a laptop)

ChrisJ

I did some soldering today using Bridgit and both Nokorode tinning and Oatey 95 tinning.

Right now I like the Oatey more.... But I didn't do that many joints.

That said my normal copper joints are about the same as they have always been. That made me happy.

The new Uponor fittings I did over didn't come out perfect, but I do feel they are solid connections. So I've got that going for me.

I am liking the Bridgit tho.

None of these joints were wiped hot. I left them to cool untouched.

hot_rod

Yeah you really don't want to cool the joint quickly with a wet rag or spray. I wait a bit before wiping down with a wet rag. Change the rag occasionally also as it gets coated with flux.

Those joints look fine to me.

97/3 is another solder to try, I used it on solar thermal piping.

The low lead brass alloy tend to expand more, so moving the torch to the tube more often assures both pieces heat evenly.

JUGHNE

Just to start another debate/discussion about soldering copper:

I started soldering in about 1980, 50/50 of course.
Have always wiped with a damp cloth and shortly there after washed with water to clean and cool....plenty of sizzle and steam.
No one instructed me about any of this. Just learned on my own.

Now with the advent of Utube which I watch a lot of repairs etc,
I hear and see most allowing naturally cooling of joints.

For 40 years I see now the errors? of my ways.......but have had maybe 10-20 leaks out of hundreds (thousands?) of joints.
They showed up immediately.....heard the air as the water came up and shut down to redo. The rest are still good for decades, a very small town so I would still hear about it.
Causes....bad flux....overheating flux.....water in pipe...2 carpenter nails, etc. and a few just because.

So to cool or not to cool??

Quick, tell me before I completely retire

mattmia2

Failures happen when the solder doesn't wet the inside of the joint. I wipe them to smooth the surface and remove the flux. I use a damp rag so the solder is still molten after i wipe it. in general you have to make sure you don't move the joint while it is transitioning from liquid to solid or it will form large, rough crystals, but other than that i don't see a problem with cooling it quickly or slowly.

There is a brief plastic phase between liquid and solid and you can't move it while it is in that state. 60/40 and 63/37 were formulated to make that temperature range very small and nearly nonexistent respectively. You can see it go from shiny to slightly duller when that happens.

GroundUp

Looks good! You should never wipe a wet joint, always wait until it switches to solid state before touching it with anything besides solder. I always wipe them immediately after it hardens to eliminate the leftover flux and blackness that comes with it, then let them naturally cool as much as possible. Certain times we just don't have time for that and will give it the wet rag treatment or even dip it in a bucket of water, but again not until it's hardened

hot_rod

Good soldering advice here from the Copper folks.

https://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/A4108-NoLeadSoldering.pdf

I changed my habit of quickly cooling a soldered joint, anyone can

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't believe in wiping with a wet cloth until after it cools. I solder it wipe the solder off with a dry cloth and then after it cools wash the flux off with a wet cloth.

If the joint is in a bad spot and wiping with a dry cloth may disrupt the joint before it cools I skip the dry cloth.

@ChrisJ if you have trouble with the "all copper" unions, switch to the Nibco unions with the brass ends.

ChrisJ

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> I don't believe in wiping with a wet cloth until after it cools. I solder it wipe the solder off with a dry cloth and then after it cools wash the flux off with a wet cloth.
>
> If the joint is in a bad spot and wiping with a dry cloth may disrupt the joint before it cools I skip the dry cloth.
>
> @ChrisJ if you have trouble with the "all copper" unions, switch to the Nibco unions with the brass ends.

I hope I'm not going to.
Have you had problem with this style union?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Copper unions in general seem to be a problem at least for me.

I have much better luck with the brass Nibco's

ChrisJ

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> Copper unions in general seem to be a problem at least for me.
>
> I have much better luck with the brass Nibco's

A problem right off the bat or over time?

EBEBRATT-Ed

They solder fine but I usually get a leak at the threaded nut so I end up doping it or using teflon tape on it which I hate doing.

Maybe it's just me and my bad luck. Others don't seem to complain

ChrisJ

> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> They solder fine but I usually get a leak at the threaded nut so I end up doping it or using teflon tape on it which I hate doing.
>
> Maybe it's just me and my bad luck. Others don't seem to complain



I usually dope the threads for lubrication.

rick in Alaska

I will hold my solder joint until I see the solder solidify, and then I will wipe a little flux on the fitting if it looks blackened, and then wipe everything down with a wet rag. If you do it while it is still hot, the wet rag will steam a little and clean everything off ok, and make it look nice and shiny. The trick is to not use too wet of a rag, and don't do it so fast that the joint cools too quick and cracks. If you hear a tick when you cool it, then you need to heat it up and do it again as the joint has cracked.
Rick