What the heck is wrong with Honeywell?

Hap_Hazzard

I just got a new Honeywell analog thermostat (CT87K), and the current temperature indicator reads 5° higher than the existing thermostat and any of my digital thermometers I put next to it. I called their support number, and they told me there's no way to calibrate it, so I just have to exchange it.

This is ridiculous!

First of all, where is their quality control?

Second, if exchanging is the only remedy, they are making their customers do their QC! How many of these are going to have to be disposed of before I get one that works right? Since they're made of plastic and chock-full of electronics, they have to send them to an electronics recycler, but I get the feeling they'll end up in a third-world landfill instead. The waste is just nauseating! Wouldn't it save a lot of grief and waste and pollution to just make the stupid things adjustable???

Is this now par for the course for Honeywell? I mean, is this the best they can do? If it is I'm just going to send it back for a refund.

ChrisJ

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> I just got a new Honeywell analog thermostat (CT87K), and the current temperature indicator reads 5° higher than the existing thermostat and any of my digital thermometers I put next to it. I called their support number, and they told me there's no way to calibrate it, so I just have to exchange it.
>
> This is ridiculous!
>
> First of all, where is their quality control?
>
> Second, if exchanging is the only remedy, they are making their customers do their QC! How many of these are going to have to be disposed of before I get one that works right? Since they're made of plastic and chock-full of electronics, they have to send them to an electronics recycler, but I get the feeling they'll end up in a third-world landfill instead. The waste is just nauseating! Wouldn't it save a lot of grief and waste and pollution to just make the stupid things adjustable???
>
> Is this now par for the course for Honeywell? I mean, is this the best they can do? If it is I'm just going to send it back for a refund.

My Prestige is very accurate.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

My Prestige is very accurate.

I'm happy for you.

HVACNUT

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
>
How many of these are going to have to be disposed of before I get one that works right?
>

Hopefully all of them.
You get what you pay for. Most of the time anyway.

> Is this now par for the course for Honeywell? I mean, is this the best they can do?

You actually purchased a very simple mechanical thermostat. I see them at the middle school science fair every year. (They never take home the blue ribbon). It's about the least they can do. They can and do much much much better, as @ChrisJ pointed out.

ChrisJ

That was kind of my point.

It wasn't a "ha ha mine works fine sucks to be you".

You bought the cheapest thing they sell that is typically bought by people who just want it to function. For $50 you can get one that's very accurate. $280+ gets you the works.

Hap_Hazzard

So, accuracy costs extra?

What if I just want a simple, basic thermostat that's reasonably accurate? Is that no longer an option?

BTW, This is not a simple mechanical thermostat. It looks like the mechanical thermostats they used to make, but now it's electronic, and complicated, and not at all accurate.

ChrisJ

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> So, accuracy costs extra?
>
> What if I just want a simple, basic thermostat that's reasonably accurate? Is that no longer an option?
>
> BTW, This is not a simple mechanical thermostat. It looks like the mechanical thermostats they used to make, but now it's electronic, and complicated, and not at all accurate.

I'm pretty sure that's long gone.
Most probably don't want it.

Fred

No @Hap_Hazzard , accuracy shouldn't cost extra. If they make and market a $50.00 analog thermostat, it should provide the functionality and accuracy required to manage your heating system or they should discontinue the product and sell a unit that functions properly. I don't know if the one you got was a "one off" failure, got dropped a few times in the store or whatever. See if the next one is accurate. You have every right to get a properly functioning and accurate unit for your money, be it a $50.00 unit or a $500.00 unit.
Clearly QA has not been a strong point for Honeywell for some time now and it's not just thermostats.

ChrisJ

> @Fred said:
> No @Hap_Hazzard , accuracy shouldn't cost extra. If they make and market a $50.00 analog thermostat, it should provide the functionality and accuracy required to manage your heating system or they should discontinue the product and sell a unit that functions properly. I don't know if the one you got was a "one off" failure, got dropped a few times in the store or whatever. See if the next one is accurate. You have every right to get a properly functioning and accurate unit for your money, be it a $50.00 unit or a $500.00 unit.
> Clearly QA has not been a strong point for Honeywell for some time now and it's not just thermostats.

You seriously feel price doesn't and shouldn't effect accuracy?

So in your mind a $8 digital thermometer should be just as accurate as a $300 laboratory thermometer.

HVACNUT

I'm pretty sure the CT87K R&D department closed its doors a long time ago. Onward and upwards.

This doesn't just cover Honeywell and thermostats. This covers just about anything. I can't even get a pair of Levi's without spandex in them for crying out loud.

Looking at it backwards, practically anyone with a job can get a Land Rover now. They don't all have the same quality, function and comfort as the flagship Range Rover, but models have been "dumbed down" to increase revenue. Less $= less options and quality.

Fred

@ChrisJ , I feel like a new thermostat should be better than the one being replaced and if they don't want to be in the low end segment of the market, then they should get out of it. It's not a comparison of an $8.00 thermometer or a $300 lab unit. That's why most lab equipment manufacturers don't sell below a certain product standard. Make it to do its job or don't make it. It's a simple value proposition. If I want a broken thermostat, I'll find one in someone's trash can.

ChrisJ

> @Fred said:
> @ChrisJ , I feel like a new thermostat should be better than the one being replaced and if they don't want to be in the low end segment of the market, then they should get out of it. It's not a comparison of an $8.00 thermometer or a $300 lab unit. That's why most lab equipment manufacturers don't sell below a certain product standard. Make it to do its job or don't make it. It's a simple value proposition. If I want a broken thermostat, I'll find one in someone's trash can.

It does it's job. It turns the heat on and off and displays a number. The actual temperature is irrelevant. Ask @DanHolohan about all the thermostats that are installed but not even hooked up and yet still make people happy.

Fact is those thermostats are for landlords and youth challenged people that just want to replace their round thermostat that broke as cheap as possible and with little change as possible.

Everyone on here knows they're garbage and have been for years.

That's why everyone on here recommends the better digital ones. Because they know better.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I have had nothing but excellent results with Honeywell VisionPro and FocusPro line of thermostats ($50 and up). I have installed literally hundreds of them. I have them in my own home (3 of them 15 years old) and they all read within 1 degree of each other when set side by side. I am not a fan of the power stealing cheap ones, so I cannot comment on their accuracy or reliability.

FWIW: I hold a calibration certification and things like inaccuracy will not be tolerated.

Fred

@ChrisJ , I don't have a dog in this fight but when I install a thermostat that isn't connected to anything, then, as the landlord, it does what I expected it to do, make someone happy, nothing more. BUT, that tenant isn't going to be happy if the temp reads 5 or more degrees higher or lower than what it is suppose to read, depending on if I like cold or hot. That's about perception.
If people are okay buying a thermostat that is off by 5 or 10 degrees, I am fine with a disclaimer on the packaging that says something to the effect of "BECAUSE WE PRODUCE THESE UNITS SO INEXPENSIVELY, ACCURACY MAY BE OFF BY 5 OR MORE DEGREES." If the manufacturer wants to not include an accurate thermometer, then just put the temp setting dial on the unit with no thermometer. Its cheaper to produce and the buyer knows he's not getting anything more than an on/off switch, whose accuracy is still questionable.
As consumers, we have a right to expect a functioning product and that includes all the functions provided on the unit. Life span may be questionable but that's what a warranty should address. Some products offer a 90 day warranty, others 1, 3 or five years.
When we buy a defective product and just decide to live with it, we are telling the manufacturer it's okay to deliver poor quality, we'll just live with whatever we get.

STEVEusaPA

Hap_Hazzard said:

I just got a new Honeywell analog thermostat (CT87K), and the current temperature indicator reads 5° higher than the existing thermostat and any of my digital thermometers I put next to it.

Yeah, pretty common. The one for my shop has to be set for 55 to keep it at 50.

Hap_Hazzard said:

I called their support number, and they told me there's no way to calibrate it, so I just have to exchange it.

This is ridiculous!

First of all, where is their quality control?


Second, if exchanging is the only remedy, they are making their customers do their QC! How many of these are going to have to be disposed of before I get one that works right?

Lots, I had them bad out of the box.

Hap_Hazzard said:

Since they're made of plastic and chock-full of electronics, they have to send them to an electronics recycler, but I get the feeling they'll end up in a third-world landfill instead. The waste is just nauseating! Wouldn't it save a lot of grief and waste and pollution to just make the stupid things adjustable???

Is this now par for the course for Honeywell? I mean, is this the best they can do? If it is I'm just going to send it back for a refund.

I used to try to use these for people who wanted a simple tstat. Minimal tstat I use now is a T4, programmed on permanent hold if need be.

Solid_Fuel_Man

At least Honeywell said he can get a new one. I dont see the issue here, they will give him a new one. Now if that one is also bad then we will have something to talk about.

HVACNUT

So the wife ordered this last year. The clock didn't work. Sent it back and replaced. Small crack in the glass. Sent it back and replaced. Now I always feel sticky when I sit outside. And its staying. Why? Because she said so.
I want to smash it every time I look at it.

You get what you pay for. I paid for pretty, not function I guess.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

Fact is those thermostats are for landlords and youth challenged people that just want to replace their round thermostat that broke as cheap as possible and with little change as possible.

This one's for me, and it's replacing a fancy digital piece of junk that has features I don't need, like settings for cooling I don't have and fans that don't exist. All I want is a simple, accurate thermostat that turns the boiler on when it drops below 70° and turns it off when it gets back up to 70°. That's not a lot to ask for.

unclejohn

In a nut shell we all miss the made in America logo.

Hap_Hazzard

Fred said:

If people are okay buying a thermostat that is off by 5 or 10 degrees, I am fine with a disclaimer on the packaging that says something to the effect of "BECAUSE WE PRODUCE THESE UNITS SO INEXPENSIVELY, ACCURACY MAY BE OFF BY 5 OR MORE DEGREES."

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I don't think $28.00 is cheap for a basic thermostat. I'm not asking for programmability, or heating and cooling, or a backlit digital display. I'm just asking for a heat-only, non-programmable, analog thermostat that's ACCURATE.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Back to mercury. As long as the installer has a level they worked.

Hap_Hazzard

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Back to mercury. As long as the installer has a level they worked.

And you could calibrate the old ones.

mattmia2

I suspect one or more huge conglomerate pressured them to meet a price point.

It isn't hard to read temp within a quarter degree or so with a couple dollar microcontroller and a dollar or 2 of additional components.

ChrisJ

> @unclejohn said:
> In a nut shell we all miss the made in America logo.

Do you think you could have a T87 made in America at a decent level of quality and sell it for $28? Because @Hap_Hazzard is saying he expects that.

This includes labor, materials, packing and shipping to a retailer and the markup.

ChrisJ

@Hap_Hazzard
I don't usually recommend it because I don't like them.

But if all you want is a basic mechanical thermostat you need an older mercury T87. That'll get you what you're after.

I'd love to see what the retail price on an older T87 was in the 1980s.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

> @unclejohn said:

> In a nut shell we all miss the made in America logo.



Do you think you could have a T87 made in America at a decent level of quality and sell it for $28? Because @Hap_Hazzard is saying he expects that.



This includes labor, materials, packing and shipping to a retailer and the markup.

No, you're right. It's much cheaper to make them in China, ship them to the other side of the world, have the customers return them, and ship them all the way back to China to get recycled. Sounds lke a really sound business model.

mattmia2

I'd imagine a mercury T87 will outlive us all.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

I don't usually recommend it because I don't like them.



But if all you want is a basic mechanical thermostat you need an older mercury T87. That'll get you what you're after.

What, exactly, are you recommending? A thermostat that hasn't been made in 40 years? My Wayback Machine needs a new flux capacitor, so that's not an option.

ChrisJ

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> (Quote)
> What, exactly, are you recommending? A thermostat that hasn't been made in 40 years? My Wayback Machine needs a new flux capacitor, so that's not an option.

They're floating all over.
eBay and I'm sure many have them on here.

That's my recommendation based on what you insist on having. An old style mechanical thermostat.

My real recommendation was and is to buy a better Honeywell.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-TH5110D1022-The-FocusPRO-Large-Screen-Non-Programmable-Digital-Thermostat-Premier-White-4088000-p

Fred

You can still get the T87 @Hap_Hazzard :
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-T87K1007-Heat-Only-Thermostat/dp/B000RUJH3E/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=78546437059221&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=honeywell+t87+thermostat&qid=1583804005&sr=8-3

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

My real recommendation was and is to buy a better Honeywell.



https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-TH5110D1022-The-FocusPRO-Large-Screen-Non-Programmable-Digital-Thermostat-Premier-White-4088000-p

That is so not what I need. It's basically the Honeywell version of the LUX thermostat I want to replace, and it's TWICE as expensive as the CT87K. Why pay for a bunch of features I don't need when it just makes the basic functionality harder to use?

Hap_Hazzard

Fred said:

You can still get the T87 @Hap_Hazzard :
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-T87K1007-Heat-Only-Thermostat/dp/B000RUJH3E/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=78546437059221&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=honeywell+t87+thermostat&qid=1583804005&sr=8-3

What's the difference between the T87K1007 and the CT87K I'm returning? It looks like exactly the same thing, except it costs about seven bucks more.

ChrisJ

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> (Quote)
> That is so not what I need. It's basically the Honeywell version of the LUX thermostat I want to replace, and it's TWICE as expensive as the CT87K. Why pay for a bunch of features I don't need when it just makes the basic functionality harder to use?

It does CPH and I'm not sure what features you're talking about. It's a manual thermostat with large easy to read display.

It's nothing like your LUX

It's literally as basic as you can get. You don't even pull it off the wall to change the batteries, a little compartment swings open.

Fred

Hap_Hazzard said:

Fred said:

You can still get the T87 @Hap_Hazzard :
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-T87K1007-Heat-Only-Thermostat/dp/B000RUJH3E/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=78546437059221&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=honeywell+t87+thermostat&qid=1583804005&sr=8-3

What's the difference between the T87K1007 and the CT87K I'm returning? It looks like exactly the same thing, except it costs about seven bucks more.

That I can't answer.

STEVEusaPA

HVACNUT said:

So the wife ordered this last year. The clock didn't work. Sent it back and replaced. Small crack in the glass. Sent it back and replaced. Now I always feel sticky when I sit outside. And its staying. Why? Because she said so.

I want to smash it every time I look at it.



You get what you pay for. I paid for pretty, not function I guess.

It works. That clock will always be right twice a day.

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

It does CPH and I'm not sure what features you're talking about. It's a manual thermostat with large easy to read display.



It's nothing like your LUX

The CT87K does CPH too, but frankly, I'd rather it had adjustable swing. CPH doesn't make sense when outside temp is variable. I want heat when it gets cold. I don't care how long it's been since the last time the boiler ran.

How is a digital display "easier" to read than an analog dial? For that matter, why do I even need to read it? Once it's set, I shouldn't need to mess with it. That's what I want. Set it and forget it.

I don't need cooling controls, I don't have any fans, and I don't need to know which "system." There's only one: steam freaking heat!

ChrisJ

> @Hap_Hazzard said:
> (Quote)
> The CT87K does CPH too, but frankly, I'd rather it had adjustable swing. CPH doesn't make sense when outside temp is variable. I want heat when it gets cold. I don't care how long it's been since the last time the boiler ran.
>
> How is a digital display "easier" to read than an analog dial? For that matter, why do I even need to read it? Once it's set, I shouldn't need to mess with it. That's what I want. Set it and forget it.
>
> I don't need cooling controls, I don't have any fans, and I don't need to know which "system." There's only one: steam freaking heat!

CPH isn't a fixed rate....

Do what you want.

I tried to help you, but you know better. Good luck my friend.

Hap_Hazzard

Does anybody know if these are any good?
https://www.amazon.com/Emerson-1E78-140-Non-Programmable-Thermostat-Single-Stage/dp/B00204WWGE/

Hap_Hazzard

ChrisJ said:

CPH isn't a fixed rate....

Whatever. It's just not relevant. I want the heat to come on when it's cold. Period. If it's cold out, there will be more cycles per hour. I don't think it makes sense to put an upper limit on that when it means I'll be waiting in the cold for the heat to come on.

ChrisJ

Hap_Hazzard said:

ChrisJ said:

CPH isn't a fixed rate....

Whatever. It's just not relevant. I want the heat to come on when it's cold. Period. If it's cold out, there will be more cycles per hour. I don't think it makes sense to put an upper limit on that when it means I'll be waiting in the cold for the heat to come on.

As I said, there is no limit.
It's not an actual cycles per hour setting, it's more of a behavior setting. It will come on when it's cold, period.

It has more to do with overshoot and undershoot and how it compensates via an algorithm. Higher CPH = more sensitive and tighter temp control. 1 CPH = biggest swing. It doesn't mean it literally runs 1 cycle per hour.

Literally everyone on this forum will tell you to use a Honeywell CPH thermostat with steam.

Hap_Hazzard

That's funny. The instructions that came with that Honeywell said to set the CPH to 1 for steam, so they obviously know what they're doing.

And isn't it great that they've replaced a simple concept like temperature swing with something so counterintuitive you can't even explain how it works, much less why it's better.