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York TG8S060A12MP11B Furnace intermittently goes into lockout and then led flashes Red 7 times.

ukiltmybrutha
ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
edited February 2020 in Gas Heating
Hi,

I have had the subject problem with the subject furnace for over a year now after moving in to my home which was built around 2013. I purchased the home in 2018 and have noticed this problem ever since.

I hired a contractor to address the problem and so far he has been unable to fix it after almost $800 parts and labor. I have been between jobs for a while so this is terrifying.

It seems like the colder it gets, the more amplified the problem is. The issue never manifests itself while the contractor is here and the contractor works strict Monday through Friday hours which precludes him from visiting while the issue manifests itself.

The contractor has replaced the control board, the pressure switches, and the inducer motor (I know that sometimes these parts may be called different things and even the manual calls them different things so that leaves me a bit confused at times as to what was changed). I have cleaned the flame sensor with sandpaper based upon youtube video suggestions and he also cleaned it thereafter with emory cloth.

I also found what I believe to be called a hot air ignitor with a white streak on it (It sits on the same rail as the flame sensor but goes to what I believe to be the 1st burner not the 3rd one that the flame sensor seems to be going to if I am counting correctly). I sanded it to the best of my ability but the streak largely remains on one side. I hope that I did not wreck it but removing it and sanding it.

Here is a pic of what I found with respect to what may or may not be called the "hot air ignitor":



Still, the problem persists.

Here is basically what happens:

You can hear the system trying to work up to 3 times with about 20 second breaks in between. If it does not work, it goes into lockout blowing cold air for about an hour.

On average (I say average) because the results are NEVER the same, I will get heating on the 3rd attempt if at all.

I have googled around and noticed the highest level of expertise on this forum but I am having a hard time understanding what was actually done to resolve the problem being a newb.

It seems like some of the posters seemed clueless when initiating their question but were actually experienced posters. Some of the responses I did not completely understand either.

Now I was an electronics technician in another life so I can understand some of it but I was hoping that you could talk down to me like a little kid with any advice since at this point I'd like to tackle the issue myself.

As the thread continues, I may inject some possible questions about fixes that I have seen posted which I am not getting.

Thanks for any help!!
«1

Comments

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    edited February 2020
    The only thing you failed to mention is what the 7 flashes of the led fault code indicates. Is it ignition failure? Pressure switch fault? High limit open?
    It should be pretty easy to isolate the issue based on the fault code, this information should be on one of the panels to the furnace. I'm not sure why your tech was trying so many different random attempts at repair.
    ukiltmybruthamattmia2
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    Thanks and I have no idea either. I though that 7 flashes was as close as I was going to get to the root cause.

    The documentation that I have says that: 7 RED FLASHES: This fault code indicates that the flame could not be
    established during three trials for ignition. Check that the gas valve switch is in the ON position. Check for low or no gas pressure, faulty gas valve, dirty or faulty flame sensor, faulty hot surface ignitor, loose wires or a burner problem. The furnace will lock out for one hour and then restart.

    To me, that seems like a whole mouthful for a newbie.

    I will check the covers and see if I get any additional information beyond that and report back.

    Thanks.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    It sounds like ignition failure lockout. Are you on natural gas or LP? Have your tech check incoming and manifold gas pressure. If that's ok then the next step is to remove the burners and check the condition of them. It could be that they are rusty and the crossover passages between them are obstructed. What happens is sometimes the burner in front of the igniter ignite, but the flame doesn't make it to the burner at the opposite end in front of the flame sensor. Sometimes cleaning the crossover passages is enough, sometimes the burners need replacement.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    I am on LP. He checked one of the regulators going to the house and gave it another click citing that he likes to see higher pressure. He said the only thing he could duplicate was a case where the pressure going to the lowest burner was too high causing it to not ignite once. He mentioned the number "20" as opposed to "10".

    He did say that he was going to try replacing "those rails that gas flows through" before he gives up. Could these be the crossover passages or might he be talking about something else?

    Now I have used compressed air via my compressor to clean the burners and everything out as best as I can. Do the burners need to be removed or is just cleaning with compressed air sufficient?

    Thanks.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    Lol, you definitely have the dirty/rusty crossover passages problem I thought you had after I googled the error code.
    I'm not 100 percent sure you can remove the burners one at a time or if they all come out as one assembly, I'm thinking that has individual burners that comes out one at a time...either way the burners need to be removed and I would try cleaning them with a wire brush. That would be a temporary repair until new burners can be installed.
    The only other thing that would cause a burner to fail to ignite would be a plugged manifold orifice, but that's usually not an intermittent problem. Good luck with it and post back about how it works out!
    ukiltmybrutha
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 3,991
    We are dealing with a rouge York issue too, factory rep has us going back again and again. Still chipping at it.

    Take a look at the flame as the blower comes on, do the flames jiggle or move at all? If yes you may need a new heat exchanger. Ours is fine but good to observe this
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    > @GW said:
    > We are dealing with a rouge York issue too, factory rep has us going back again and again. Still chipping at it.
    >
    > Take a look at the flame as the blower comes on, do the flames jiggle or move at all? If yes you may need a new heat exchanger. Ours is fine but good to observe this

    Just curious...what's the nature of the issue you are dealing with @GW?
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    Thanks! Is replacement of the burners a DIY job? If so, are there any precautions I'd need to take? I'd rather do it myself since the tech has not been able to resolve this I'd reasonably believe that I could do no worse. I will check the flame as the blower goes on. I might even post a youtube video.

    I have a whole slew of wire brushes. What type if this indeed a DIY job?
  • ch4man
    ch4man Member Posts: 239
    ask for a different tech that knows how to use a manometer and a volt meter. if he's not testing he's guessing.
    ukiltmybruthamattmia2
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    It's not hard to replace the burners. Sometimes you just need to remove the flame sensor (usually just one 1/4" or 5/16" screw), the hot surface igniter will need to be removed. This is usually one or two of the same screws, but be super careful with that because it's very fragile. Sometimes you need to remove the manifold and the gas valve, depending on the furnace. Sometimes the burners are screwed down, sometimes you gotta remove a brace that holds them in place. It can safely done DIY if you are comfortable attempting it.
    If you can post pictures of the furnace I can be more helpful with this.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 3,991
    Super it’s a 7 flash, intermittent lockout. York TM9E080B12MP11, 4 years old.

    New flame rod, igniter, board, gas valve (gas valve was my decision) some burner parts (my tech did all of this, maybe new burner and some “mesh” thing. I may be forgetting something.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
    ukiltmybrutha
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 3,991
    Micro amps were 5 something and the rep wanted 6 something. That’s when we changed the board. I recall the micro amps didn’t improve with the new board. Yes gas is at 3.5
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
    ukiltmybrutha
  • DZoro
    DZoro Member Posts: 1,047
    On the 90% York, on LP gas, they want to have stainless steel burners.
    Yours is a 80%, I believe that will be the same, but not 100% sure.
    Lp gas is hard on the burners, a good brushing may work, but new burners should be installed
    D
    ukiltmybrutha
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    Hmmmm. Maybe check inlet gas pressure when the water heater or other appliances are operating, see if it drops off.
    How is the combustion make up air supplied? I've seen some flame sensor issues with furnaces near the washing machine that are pulling in make up air from inside. VOC's from the detergent foul up the flame sensor.
    Intermittent problems can be a real pain.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,314

    I am on LP. He checked one of the regulators going to the house and gave it another click citing that he likes to see higher pressure. He said the only thing he could duplicate was a case where the pressure going to the lowest burner was too high causing it to not ignite once. He mentioned the number "20" as opposed to "10".

    Thanks.

    20" manifold pressure??? And no one sees an issue with this??

    Get rid of that guy before he blows your house up. He's no technician.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    ukiltmybruthamattmia2Zman
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    Lol, I was hoping he was referring to inlet pressure, not manifold. Maybe PSI rather than inches water collum. I agree about the tech, sounds like a parts swapper who doesn't do after hours because he doesn't want to work without being able to get more parts to replace from the supply house.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    Thanks all, I will post some pictures up and after that start on cleaning up the burners. As to removing the hot surface ignitor.... I edited my initial post up front (with a pic) where I sanded it down with grit as low as 36 in an effort to get that white area go away but largely to no avail. If it is super sensitive did I already wreck it?

    As to the tech, this was through a recommendation. Recommendations never seem to work out for me. Moving forward I am going to commit to 90% DIY in my life instead of 80%. I would have been better off dealing with a complete stranger I am willing to bet. Unfortunately this is this tech's company. 5 star ratings in my area. He is using a manometer and VOM as far as I know.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    The igniter is super fragile, it will break in half if not handled correctly. Flame sensors are just a steel rod with porcelain insulating it. If the porcelain isn't cracked or chipped it's probably ok to clean it, but don't use sandpaper. A scotch brite pad or dollar bill is all that's needed.
    Ironmanukiltmybrutha
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,314
    Has anyone checked the ground connections? The furnace uses flame rectification and REQUIRES a solid ground connection from the burners all the way back to the electric panel.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SuperTechukiltmybruthamattmia2
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    > @Ironman said:
    > Has anyone checked the ground connections? The furnace uses flame rectification and REQUIRES a solid ground connection from the burners all the way back to the electric panel.

    I was thinking about that in the furnace that @GW mentioned. The OP stated a problem with the burner in front of the flame sensor igniting, in my experience that's usually dirty/rusty burners.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    Well hopefully I didn't destroy the ignitor. Lesson learned either way!

    So I took a youtube video and will post it shortly. However, and I don't know if the problem manifests itself the same way EVERY time, but the 3rd burner (the one in the front of the flame sensor) did not ignite. I will continue to see if this is *ALWAYS* the situation or if it varies. A bit hard to keep a good eye on things since the unit is mounted horizontally in the crawl.

    I am taking heed to the ground suggestion and will visit that next (I will do a cursory review with my VOM and ask questions if it comes to that.

    In the meantime, here are some pics as suggested!






  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    Igniter and flame sensor should pull out from above the burners. It looks like you don't have much to remove to be able to look at burners and inspect the condition of them. If your hot surface igniter is still in one piece you did a good job being careful with it.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,205
    those pictures look pretty clean from here, not that the burners couldn't possibly use a brushing,
    I am betting on gas pressure, before and after the valve.
    (and it was never set up, commisioned, tested, etc)
    ukiltmybruthamattmia2
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    Also, what is this guy on about in Post #7 of this thread?

    I got the basic idea but I don't know which area of the circled area would need to be sanded if he is correct.

    https://www.diychatroom.com/f17/york-diamond-80-furnace-7-red-flashes-566194/#post4837618
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    > @ukiltmybrutha said:
    > Also, what is this guy on about in Post #7 of this thread?
    >
    > I got the basic idea but I don't know which area of the circled area would need to be sanded if he is correct.
    >
    > https://www.diychatroom.com/f17/york-diamond-80-furnace-7-red-flashes-566194/#post4837618

    If the problem was a dirty flame sensor you would see ALL of the burners fire every single time, for a couple seconds then drop out. The most important information you gave us was the part about the burner in front of the sensor not igniting. That's not the flame sensors fault. That's because gas isn't being delivered to the burner correctly. Either it's the burners, plugged orifice or improper gas pressure. Burners are usually easy to remove and inspect.
    ukiltmybruthamattmia2rick in Alaska
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,205
    stop sanding your ignitor, there'll be nothing left soon,
    you know it's working, you see the first 2 burners ignite,
    your issue is at the 3rd burner, igniting or not, and proving at the flame sensor,
    this could be a bad ground issue, mentioned by someone else above,
    or it could be gas supply, either across the burners, maybe needing cleaning,
    or more likely by wrong gas pressures, which is above your paygrade,
    you need to get a competent tech in there, with proper tools and instruments to test, and set that furnace up correctly.
    have you tried here?
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,205
    SuperTech said:

    > @ukiltmybrutha said:

    > Also, what is this guy on about in Post #7 of this thread?

    post 7 is the ground issue, it could be there, or all the way back to the electric panel,
    post a picture of your controls area showing incoming wires
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    Thanks for the link. Now not 1000 percent sure that it's always burner #3 in front of the flame sensor. Thanks for all of the other posts and some that I missed and I am reviewing after realizing that we posted on top of each other.

    Youtube video is still uploading. While that is uploading. I will see if it is *ALWAYS* burner #3 failing to light and will prepare to remove the burners and get a pic of the controls area showing incoming wires.....BTW is that area the control board area?

    Thanks!!
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 1,205
    yes, control board area,
    looking for incoming 120v wiring
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,652
    If the burner with the flame sensor in it isn't lighting, that is your problem, it isn't a ground problem.

    It is a problem with the burner or orifice being clogged, the burner being misadjusted, or the manifold pressure being too low.(or some combination)
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,652
    you need the person who will tell you over the phone what @SuperTech and i said after you tell them the burner with the flame sensor isn't lighting when it happens.

    Some of the causes are easy to see and fix, others require someone who really understands how to do combustion analysis and adjustment.
    SuperTech
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 2,652


    Youtube video is still uploading. While that is uploading. I will see if it is *ALWAYS* burner #3 failing to light and will prepare to remove the burners and get a pic of the controls area showing incoming wires.....BTW is that area the control board area?

    Thanks!!

    If some but not all burners are lighting that is your problem, not the ignitor or the flame sensor.

    If someone was tinkering with the distribution pressure or the manifold pressure, you need someone who knows what they are doing to set that back to where it is supposed to be, that is very dangerous. regardless of what the original problem was, this needs to be reset to proper settings to be safe.

    If you find passages in the burner clogged or part of it bent, you can clean/straighten that and if that fixes it, good, of not you will need someone who can adjust it properly.
    SuperTech
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    Ok, please stand by for a picture. Isn't it still possible that particular burner is not grounded and the other ones are?

    As far as the orifice situation goes. Are we talking about the brass fittings with a tiny hole at the end which come off of the brown pipe? If so, I used a safety pin to clear that little hole then swapped the fittings between #2 and #3 burner to no avail.

    Is it possible to have an obstruction in the large brown pipe that goes between burner 2 and 3? I seriously doubt that but asking.

    It it were a pressure problem, then why would the other 2 burners light?

    Finally, what does the burner look like and are they all separate pieces that are individually removable?

    Want to be sure before I attempt to clean it up.

    Thank you.

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,151
    The gas valve indicates that the valve was converted to LP, according to the cap "LP".
    Could someone have simply changed the cap and not the spring?
    This would produce low delivery pressure to the manifold?
    The orifices most likely were changed as that would be noticeable even at low pressure.

    Also cleaning with air without removing the burners could have pushed debris into the orifices.
    SuperTech
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,151
    Also, what does the exhaust venting on the furnace look like?
    Pictures from further back would help.
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    Ok, so on the orifice theory, if the orifices are what I guessed they were then there is no obstruction. Are the orifices what I asked about e.g. the little brass fittings with holes in them on the brown tube?

    The LP conversion sticker. Interesting possibility.

    I am holding off on the pic of the 120 VAC input and the youtube video and pics of exhaust tubing (super noisy by the way in any wind) Because....

    UPDATE

    I have removed the burners and want to know exactly what to clean with a wire brush (don't want to hurt anything).

    I am also going to swap burner 2 and 3 position to see if the problem follows the burner position. That should help rule out some things.

    Here are the burners!







  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    Your burners look decent. The crossover passages are the slots to the left and right of the center of the outlet of the burners. They could have possibly had some debris, but they don't look rusty or anything....

    The orifices are what you mentioned.

    Burners don't need to be "grounded" to work, the flame sensor needs a solid path to ground at the panel, but that won't cause one of the burners to fail to ignite.

    I'd be really curious to know why you have a gas valve for LP when you stated it was on Natural gas. It's becoming a necessity to get a professional with a manometer and digital combustion analyzer in there to ensure that the furnace is completely safe and operating reliably.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,151
    OP did state LP.
    ukiltmybrutha
  • ukiltmybrutha
    ukiltmybrutha Member Posts: 24
    edited February 2020
    Yes, I mentioned LP not NG.

    Anyways, I cleaned up and swapped out burners 2 and 3.

    The results.....the problem is still in the same position e.g. number 3.

    The theory on that conversion not being done correctly seems like a possible cause.

    With your help, I have done everything that I can it seems without calling in a pro maybe sans getting a mano meter from harbor freight or the like if there is anything to measure voltage wise..

    I will still upload the requested pics if you think that makes sense but at this point I think it may be a moot point.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,574
    > @ukiltmybrutha said:
    > Yes, I mentioned LP not NG.
    >
    > Anyways, I cleaned up and swapped out burners 2 and 3.
    >
    > The results.....the problem is still in the same position e.g. number 3.
    >
    > The theory on that conversion not being done correctly seems like a possible cause.
    >
    > Only problem is that position number 3 now refuses to light at all!

    Now is the best time to get a professional with the proper tools involved, it's no longer an intermittent issue. Most techs should easily be able to determine if the manifold pressure is correct and the right spring is installed in the valve, regardless of the fuel.
    ukiltmybrutha
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