New Boiler New Problems

JeffPmillburn

I had a new steam boiler installed as my old one cracked. The old worked perfectly with little noise and heated the house quickly. With the new boiler the radiators on the top floor are hissing very loud for hours. I am having to refill the water every other day. The radiators must be pitched correctly as the old boiler worked great. I checked the pressure and it is on the lowest setting. Is too much steam being produced? what else do you think it could be?

nicholas bonham-carter

What does the installer think is wrong?
Was the boiler ever skimmed/cleaned?
What sort of main vents are in place?
Probably your pressure is too high, and your main (not rad) venting is inadequate.
Post some pictures of the boiler and it’s piping, so we can give more advice.—NBC

JeffPmillburn

installer told me it was the vents. I replaced them all with new Gorton vents....no difference. Boiler was cleaned twice. I asked him about the pressure and he said it was on the lowest setting recommended.

Jamie Hall

And the lowest setting recommended (by him) was?

ethicalpaul

We don’t say it enough—congrats on a nice looking set of near boiler pipes. I think I see both side supplies utilized and correct header. It’s all too uncommon!

Like nbc above, my question is how is the main venting?

Also, is it cool to warmish air that is hissing out, or is it hot air/steam?

And I’m really concerned about you refilling the water so often!! Where is it going?

JeffPmillburn

it is hot air/steam coming out of the vents. I am going to check the pressure when i get home tonight and report back. Plumber thinks all the hissing is where the water is going. The hissing is loud and lasts hours in the last 2 radiators on the line (2 floors up from the boiler)

JeffPmillburn

here is the pressure setting and gauge.

HVACNUT

2 psi cut in is hardly the lowest setting. Lower it to .5 . You can go a little lower but don't disconnect the linkage.
Set the white dial to 1.

ethicalpaul

> @JeffPmillburn said:
> it is hot air/steam coming out of the vents. I am going to check the pressure when i get home tonight and report back. Plumber thinks all the hissing is where the water is going. The hissing is loud and lasts hours in the last 2 radiators on the line (2 floors up from the boiler)

OK that’s probably where your water is going. Did your installer size the boiler to the edr of your radiators? I wouldn’t expect to see radiators full of steam and hissing steam except on a very long call for heat in a properly sized system.

But even then, why is the boiler on for hours? What’s your thermostat situation when it’s firing for hours? Are you recovering from a 20 degree setback?

Do what @HVACNUT says and crank down that pressure. Then replace any leaking vents. They should close when steam hits them, which, again, really shouldn’t happen during a normal call for heat

JeffPmillburn

i will try lowering the PSI and let you know. I leave the heat most of the day at 65 and twice a day it goes up to 72. Thanks for the help

Jamie Hall

JeffPmillburn said:

i will try lowering the PSI and let you know. I leave the heat most of the day at 65 and twice a day it goes up to 72. Thanks for the help

That's a seven degree setback -- about twice as much as the normal amount one would expect for a steam system just once a day. I doubt very much that it's saving you any energy; in fact, it's almost certainly costing you.

neilc

did we ask about main venting?

Fred

It takes a long time to recover from a 7 degree setback and obviously the boiler is over-sized for the connected EDR.
- Reduce the Pressuretrol settings to .5 PSI Cut-In and set the white dial to "1"
- eliminate the thermostat set-backs for a couple days and see if the problem goes away.
- If the water in the sight glass bounces a lot, skim the boiler again. Draining the boiler is not the same as Skimming it.
- if you or your installer put any additives in the boiler water, drain the boiler and start with fresh water.

JeffPmillburn

thanks for all the suggestions.....i changed the setting to the 0.50 PSI and changed the dial to 1 last night before going to sleep. The same noises happened every time the boiler ran. The noise the radiators at the end of the line (2 floors up from the boiler) do not sound like the normal hissing that eventually stops on radiators that are only one floor up from the boiler. It is a much louder and constant sound. I will try keeping a constant temp in the house instead and see if that works but as it is i am going through a full pot of water almost every day. Any other suggestions or ideas that that sound is?

ethicalpaul

OK the constant temperature is good. Do you know what main venting is? We have asked about it several times. We can help you look for it.

If you don't have any main venting, then all the air in the main pipes (and the boiler itself) must be expelled through the radiator vents at the start of a call for heat. This wastes fuel since during this time no heat is getting into your living space. This would be room temperature air coming out of the radiator vents.

Second (or higher) floor radiators would often have more of this air hissing out because there is more piping full of air to expel compared to first floor radiators.

This problem would not cause a loss of water.

What would cause a loss of water would be radiator vents that are leaking steam during a call for heat (this is why I asked you about the temperature of the air and/or steam coming out of the vents)

We want to get good clarity on which problem you might have (you might have both) so we can help you solve the noise and the water loss.

What is a "full pot of water"?

JeffPmillburn

I see one Gorton main vent valve in the basement near the boiler. By a "full pot of water" i mean i am filling the boiler on almost a daily basis as it keeps running out and shutting down.

Chris_L

If you are losing that much water, it is unlikely just a problem with the vents. Have you checked for other leaks?

If the returns to the boiler are underground that would be the first place to look. Also possible, but unlikely if it new, is the boiler itself. You can check that by shutting off the boiler for a couple hours and completely filling it with water. Then wait to see if you see a puddle beneath it.

JeffPmillburn

chris, tried both. Plumber came in and could not find any leaks. Boiler was shut off for a day and retained all the water. The issue seems to be too much steam being lost through the radiators. I lowered the psi to 0.50 but still lost most of my water last night and the radiators were very noisy.

Fred

Does your house feel like a sauna? That much water loss, from steam vents would likely cause water to run down the walls.

JeffPmillburn

no, i keep it at 65 during the day and 70 at night.

Fred

You are trying to recover a 5 degree setback and bring the house back up to 70 at night when the boiler is also fighting lowering outside temps. Just try setting the temp at 68 or 70 and leaving it that way with no setback for a couple days and see what happens. Keep in mind you are not just bringing the room temperature up to 70, you also have to bring all the contents of the house up to temp as well.
Also, even with that setback, if the Pressuretrol is working properly, it should shut the boiler down when the pressure get to 1.5 to 2 PSI and that won't create to constant venting at the radiators that you are experiencing. Make sure the pigtail that the Pressuretrol is mounted on isn't clogged. If it is, the Pressuretrol isn't able to see the system pressure and shut the burner down until the pressure drops. That may cause some short cycling but even that is better than adding gallons of water every day.
That's a lot of water to lose but if all the radiator vents are blowing steam for hours, it possible. Adding that much fresh water everyday will kill the boiler in a relatively short time. You can't possibly save enough on fuel costs to pay for another replacement boiler.

ethicalpaul

JeffPmillburn said:

I see one Gorton main vent valve in the basement near the boiler. By a "full pot of water" i mean i am filling the boiler on almost a daily basis as it keeps running out and shutting down.

In addition to what everyone has said about the water loss, I wonder if the main vent is working. Can you observe it during the start of a call for heat and see if it expels air and then closes when the steam hits it? If it is leaking steam, that would be another place you're losing water.

But really, you are losing the whole boiler's water every day from steam???? This is unheard of

Also, @Fred, we talked him into keeping his temp constant for a few days a few messages up

JeffPmillburn

1) i will set the temp and leave it for a few days to see what happens
2) i will watch the main vent to make sure it is expelling air properly
3) this boiler is only a few months old and i know if i keep filling it each day it will not last long which is why i thank you all for you comments and suggestions.

Will let you know.

ethicalpaul

Cool. You'll get to the bottom of this, I'm convinced.

In the meantime I just want to say again that your boiler installation looks quite good and for that you can be really thankful! (I'm speaking of the pipes...the size I don't think we know yet)

mattmia2

If it is venting most of its air through the radiator vents, that higher velocity air can propel pieces of rust and other debris in to the vents and make them stick open. I don't recall seeing if you tried replacing a vent with a known good vent. If there is stuff in the vent you can try flushing it out with vinegar, but I would try a new, good quality vent first to see if it closes before trying to clean the existing vents.

If the main venting is adequate you shouldn't hear the radiator vents.

JeffPmillburn

i replaced almost all of my vents with gorton a few weeks ago when this started happening. I am fairly certain its not the vents

Fred

JeffPmillburn said:

i replaced almost all of my vents with gorton a few weeks ago when this started happening. I am fairly certain its not the vents

I'm betting the pigtail is clogged.

ethicalpaul

In a 3 month old boiler? But I agree, it does sound like too high a pressure is being delivered for too long with hours of steam hissing...maybe the pressuretrol is wired wrong?

JeffPmillburn

any suggestions for knowing if the pressure control is wired incorrectly?

ethicalpaul

You could look at your pressure gauge to see what it registered in the middle of a call for heat to see how high the pressure gets. You have to trust the gauge though.

You could see if the burn cycle gets interrupted at any point to let the pressure drop. That would indicate it is working.

Did you check the setting of the white dial inside your pressuretrol? It should read “1”

JeffPmillburn

yes, the dial reads 1. I will check the gauge later today but i dont think i have ever seen it move.

ethicalpaul

If it has never moved that gives @Fred's idea more strength.

Hard to believe a new gauge, even a 0-30 one wouldn't budge with lots of vents hissing steam unless it wasn't seeing the pressure due to a clog.

JeffPmillburn

will report back...thanks for the help

Fred

From what I can see, the Pressuretrol is wired correctly, white to white as a pass through and a black from each of the two cables on each Pressuretrol terminal for make/break. Also @ethicalpaul , I see where he says the boiler is a "few" months old but I don't see where he says it is 3 months old. Plus he say he replaced vents a few weeks ago when this problem started. That suggests to me that the boiler ran fine for a while which confirms the Pressuretrol worked before. It has to be a clog in the pigtail.

ethicalpaul

You’re convincing me @Fred !

JeffPmillburn

i replaced the boiler in the summer. It wasnt needed until the weather got cold a few months ago (october?). It has been acting this way since it was turned on full time. The plumber that installed the unit tried cleaning, then skimming, then reviewing the pitch of the radiators.....each time was a few weeks. Nothing he has tried has worked.

mattmia2

did it work better for a little while after the plumber did something or was there no improvement ever?

JeffPmillburn

no improvement for anything he tried. Didnt believe me that the water was running out in just over a day. Claimed had to be a leak but was unable to find any.

gfrbrookline

You said you replaced all of the radiator vents with Gorton's a few weeks ago. Two question, did you have the water loss before doing this and how did you choose the size of the vent for each radiator?

JeffPmillburn

yes, i had the water loss before. The initial thought was that i had old vents that were failing which caused excess steam to escape. That caused the water loss. Replacing the vents didnt do anything. I replaced the vents with the exact same size as i had before with the old boiler that worked great. I also matched it up to the diagram that gorton provides. Smallest vents closest to the boiler and then widening out to the end of the line.

nde

I know somebody asked but is the return buried or above ground? There is no way that much water would be lost via rad vents in a day so it has to be somewhere else. When you say the old boiler cracked was that b/c it went dry and was fired which would suggest a big leak before the new boiler went in? It must be a leak in the return or inside wall where it cannot be seen. If return is above ground and dry, you should check each rad riser, might have to run a plumber camera down from each rad via the riser run to check for leaks.