Lochinvar KBN151 Help

docjone5

Hi, I have had this unit in my home since 2011. I have had many "gremlins" with this system over the years. I have had a couple different contractors in the area out to look at it. What I find is none of them seem to understand this system. So they charge me, leave and the problems persist. Is there anyone who knows a company in the Buffalo NY area who knows these systems? (IE: someone who might possibly actually go into the menus and understand the settings or bring a laptop and hook it up to the system).
Thanks!

Ironman

Have you used the contractor locator on this site?

docjone5

Hi I have used the contractor locator and it show no one within a 100 mile radius of my zip code, which I find odd.

Ironman

You could also contact Lochinvar and ask if there's a factory trained tech in your area.

3zht

What are you trying to do in the menu?

Zman

The Lochinvar menu is pretty simple to navigate.
What are your gremlins?

Leon82

The manuals should be available online and they show how to get into the installer menu.

You hold the menu button if I recall for 5 seconds. Then put the password in with the knob 5309 was in my book

JUGHNE

Do you ever get red screens requiring manual reset?

docjone5

Hi, I'm really not trying to do anything in the menus. I have had issues with the setup from day one. I just want to lay the base that I do NOT know anything about home heating. My background is computers etc. I was more or less forced into trying to educate myself on this unit as I have had in 2 local contractors (one of which Lochinvar endorsed) and each of them cannot adjust the system so I no longer have: ARHL lockouts, MRHL lockouts, the occasional flame fail, scalding hot domestic hot water, and 2 zones that the heat no matter what the thermostat is set goes through the roof to 74 degrees. They couldn't seem to get the air out of the system so when certain zones come on I hear water and popping like crazy. I paid both of these places a lot of money and the problems persist.
So far since the weather has gotten cold here I have had 3 AHRL lock outs. This pretty much goes on all winter. Frustrating.

JUGHNE

I see your previous pictures of the system piping.
How about at least one big picture shot showing all. Back up.

Is the boiler pump pumping into the boiler like the book shows?
There looks to be a smaller pump next to it....it is laying on it's side, not good BTW, does it go to the WH tank? It too should pump into the boiler.

All the pumps have an arrow on the back side somewhere to show the direction of flow.

docjone5

I am including some more photos of the system. Not sure why the pump is sideways but that pump indeed has a copper pipe going to the big water tank.

JUGHNE

Is the arrow on the boiler pump pointing to the boiler?
Picture of that pump from the side would be good.

docjone5

The arrow on the sideways pump is pointing away from the hot water tank and after the pump the pipe splits in 2 directions. One way to another pump and the other to the lochinvar.

joseph annon

ARHL and MHRL lockouts have to do with flow/temperature issues. It can be an issue with the system sensor location. If system sensor is installed or problem with low flow from the boiler under certain conditions. My initial thoughts are that with a pumped zone system you probably need a hydraulic separator to eliminate conflict with the system pumps and the boiler pump. That the DHW tank is overheating is probably that there is ghost flow through the tank when the boiler is in heating mode.

JUGHNE

Your last picture posted is the DHW indirect tank pump and it should be pointed at/into the boiler like it is.

The boiler pump is the other pump not mounted on the wall board. It should be pointed at/into the boiler. If not sure of the arrow, a side view of the pump can usually tell us the direction of flow.

And all the pumps on the board are all the flow arrows pointing up?

docjone5

Also, as a side note to this issue. Does anyone know if it is possible to wire in a buzzer or something to this boiler so when it Locksout it will actually let me know and I don't have to wait for the temp in the house to go down which causes me to check this evil thing for the "Red Screen"

JUGHNE

The "Red Screen" should just about never happen.
I have had it on this model;
There is a 4 wire outlet temp sensor for the boiler to prevent overheating. It is 2 sensors in one, if they do not agree on reading the same temp then it will lockout with MRHL even if there is no high temp.......if I understand that part of the system correctly......
Also if it is overheating it could be the flue temp is too hot in relationship to the return water temp. From the book: "Clean the heat exchanger if flue temp is more than 54 degrees above return water temp"....not sure if that would send MRHL but it is an easy check as those temps are available on screen by rotating the knob.

I think that Joseph's posting above may have nailed it.
You need closely spaced tees to provide hydraulic separation of the pumps. Every piping diagram shown in the I&O books show one installed. However I can not follow the piping you have because some pipes are hiding directly behind others in the pictures.
Any chance of pictures of the piping to right of the wall board from side angles that do not conceal piping behind front piping?

Don't need the wall board manifold shown just from boiler to the right end of the manifold.

Also the arrow direction on the pumps......very important.

DZoro

Maybe worth a try getting a new sensor, have seen a batch of those that were bad.
The piping is not the best design to say the least. It doesn't have proper primary / secondary piping. From what we can see.
D

docjone5

I tried to get the best pics I could. Hope these show what is needed.

JUGHNE

Arrows on the pumps, showing the flow direction???????????
Need the same pictures only back up for wider view. Thanks

docjone5

Ok did some further back, it’s a bit cramped over where this setup is. Also got pics of the pump arrows. All the pumps on the board the arrows point up. The pump laying flat the arrow points toward the front of the boiler. The other pump the arrow points up. Thanks for the help.

Ironman

The fact that you don't have p/s piping as required and shown in the I/O manual may be the cause of the boiler tripping ARHL and MRHL.

The way it's piped now there's hydraulic interference between the boiler loop and the manifolds. The more circs running on the manifold, the more the boiler circ will struggle to maintain proper flow through the heat exchanger and thus the high limit will trip.

Notice from these two diagrams how that the Tees MUST be arranged to achieve hydraulic separation with proper p/s piping:

JUGHNE

If the boiler pump (other pump) points up away from the boiler then it is backwards, it should pump into the boiler like the DHW tank pump does.
Then an Ironman and Joesph have pointed out you do not have correct piping after that.

What is deceiving in your installation is that it looks pretty good, the workmanship is pretty good and anyone looking at it assumes the installer knew what he was doing.
But IMO he was wrong. The piping diagrams are clearly in the book and were not followed.

docjone5

Thank you all for the info and insight. So does this mean I am more or less screwed? Or at least in for a very expensive repair bill to modify what I have and I guess since there doesn’t seem to be anyone in my area that knows these systems I think I’m just stuck with it they way it is.

Ironman

I don't see why you couldn't hire a competent plumber to fix it. Just make sure that he understands that he has to follow the diagram precisely and if he doesn't, he'll have to make it right on his dime.

JUGHNE

Doc, where is this located?

docjone5

My house is in Niagara county in NY state. (Buffalo NY area)

Le John

> @docjone5 said:
> My house is in Niagara county in NY state. (Buffalo NY area)

It’s brutally cold up there!

rick in Alaska

Looks to me if the piping was modified a little bit to get an actual primary secondary system, it should work fine. I don't see any way it can work the way it is now.
Take the 90 off at the top of the boiler pump, and the tee with the system return going in to it. Now from the pump, pipe straight up into a tee on its side, where the 90 was. (bullheaded tee). Now go sideways to the right out of this tee for at least five inches, and put a 90 there. From the 90, re-connect your return line from your system.
That should get you to where you want to be. Assuming the sensors are in the right place, and it is programmed right.
Rick