Losing my mind

bvaughn76

Hi, so, you may remember me from the long thread East vs West balancing issues. I am maybe making progress, but I am still screwed. I am sitting here watching my boiler short cycle.

1) I removed the air vents at the ends of my mains as there were many comments about them not being piped right.
2) I forget if these are called wet or dry, but I have drips at the end of my mains and the returns stay up high and pitch down toward the boiler and the drop at the boiler. I have verified these are all pitched to the boiler....again.
3) I verified the west main is pitched away from the boiler. I even dropped the end another inch to make sure.
4) I put 4 Gorton #2 vents in where the returns transition at the boiler. I made sure they were as high as possible and put transitions in there to try and reduce the chance water gets to the vent. There is 1 #2 on the return from the East Main north run, 1 #2 on the return from the East Main South branch, 2 #1 vents on the return from the return on the west side before Tempe main beam, and then 2 #2 vents on the return from the end of the West main.
5) I've dropped the size of almost all the air vents on the radiators to either No4 or No6. Only radiator is a very cold room on second floor on the west main that had a C.
6) In case the wet return header before the hartman loop had clogging I removed all the vertical pipes and the header and put in all new pipe.
7) In case the drip at the return before the west main goes over my main beam was clogged I removed the return pipe and replaced everything back to the boiler.
8) I installed a 0 to 5psi pressure gauge.

When I was done with the repiping of returns and adding the gortons #2, I ran the boiler. It was cold in the house, heat had been off 9hrs. It worked perfectly. I had the water at the line. Steam came quick. Both mains heated up. Hot water was felt in all the returns and heat was coming from the radiators. I thought I was finally victorious.

Till the next morning and walked in my son's room to be met by 50deg air. ****????? Poor kid had been getting no heat for over a month.

So I looked at the boiler and the water level was back at the top of the sight glass. I've gone on trips hoping that things weren't too bad. The west side would get heat after 45min or 1hr.

So, this morning I got down to my spin bike next to the radiator. Water was over the top of the sight glass. Decided to drain it back to the water line. As I rode for 1hr I listened to the boiler short cycle easily 15 times and the autofill added water 3 times. Finally so pissed I yelled up to my wife to turn the heat off.

I went back to the west main and dropped the end the inch I mentioned earlier and redid the return to make sure it was pitched. Fired things back up and no change. Lost count of the number of times it has short cycled while typing. The first elbow on the east side too hot to touch, returns from the east are hot. First elbow on the west main is still cold.

I am dumb founded where the water is going.

I called Steamworks on Nov 21. Hopefully I will get a visit this Thursday or Friday.

I have dropped easy 40hrs on this and $1k.

bvaughn76

Previous posts with pics and diagrams.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/176519/new-thread-east-v-west-balancing/p2

acwagner

I don't recall--is this natural gas fired? If so, have you clocked the burner to see if it's firing at the rate listed on the boiler plate? Maybe it's crazily overfired somehow.

I see you completely redid your wet return! So that eliminates that.

Did this all work reasonably well until you redid that one main?

JUGHNE

Have you tried to shut off the water supply to the boiler?
With the water at the correct level then start the boiler, it may shut off on LWCO but eventually the water should return and restart.
As long as you are certain the LWCO functions correctly.

Sounds like slow return and make up water added and later water returns to overfill.

bvaughn76

@acwagner it is natural gas. I dont see a rate on the name plate.

Before I redid the east main over 2 years ago, I had this serious ocean effect because there was no return. Long story.

Since then for two winters did the west work great? No, but it wasnt this bad. I also did not have this low water short cycling issue.

This is the first year I added a port to put in water treatment. It is why I suspected maybe my return piping was clogged with crap that came clean.

Fred

@bvaughn76 , Did you skim the boiler after changing out all those returns? New pipe has a lot of oil on it and that oil works its way back to the boiler and floats on top of the water, preventing the steam bubbles from breaking through the surface. The result is the water gets pushed out into the wet returns, causing the water level in the boiler to drop, causing the LWCO to trip and shut the boiler down and the Auto fill to add water. That's probably what you are calling "Short Cycling". Then, when the boiler is shut down or the Tstat reaches temp, the water added over fills the boiler. You need to skim, very slowly and it may tale several skims, maybe a week apart, to get all the oils out of the boiler. Remember, skimming is from a port above the normal water level of the boiler, draining the boiler from below the water level will never remove the oils on the surface of the water. It just causes the oil to cling to the side walls of the boiler and when you re-fill the boiler, you have the same problem.

bvaughn76

@JUGHNE agree that is how it gets overfilled. It just wont run for very long. No clue how to get it to steam.


I started this with slightly above the line. Autofill has started one. I added water twice and still the water is going from above the sight glass down below the water line and shutting off.

Boiler ran for less than 2min. So water above top of sight glass. Less then two minute cycle and water below water line.

srmaietta

Mine would do this for sure when it needs a skim or the water level gets too low. So.....
I have the feed water valve turned off.
When I start to hear the Lwco clunking the feed valve I know it’s time to give it a bit of water or a skim. Not ideal I know, but will keep me from sending cold water into a hot boiler and possibly overflowing things.

Close that valve and see how it works.

bvaughn76

@Fred I have a great skim port on the Slant fin, why I chose it. I have taken water off this port. It was cold though. Historically i did hot skimming which seemed to give me dirtier water. Let me try again. Cant hurt.

acwagner

Looks like the input is rated for 160,000 BTU/HR based on your photo (listed as "C.S.A input BTU/HR").

It's worth checking. Kind of a long shot. But, I'm leaning toward your near boiler piping is the culprit. For a boiler that large, a single 2.5" reduce to 2" riser isn't adequate. It's probably causing the boiler water to be driven up into the piping and triggering the LWCO.

Fred

bvaughn76 said:

@Fred I have a great skim port on the Slant fin, why I chose it. I have taken water off this port. It was cold though. Historically i did hot skimming which seemed to give me dirtier water. Let me try again. Cant hurt.

Remember a good slow skim is important. Don't rush it, just a trickle of water into the boiler and out of the skim port. Hot skim is best, maybe at least an hour or two, each time you skim.

JUGHNE

I did not read all of your previous postings but did notice in one picture that the piping near the boiler not looking so good.
Good chance that too much water is leaving the boiler with the steam.....wet steam.....goes out into the system and eventually returns.
Got any pictures of the boiler piping, floor to ceiling?
Maybe they were posted previous, sorry to ask again.

mattmia2

The oil in the boiler might be a clue about why it worked great when you first did it then never again after it got the system hot and washed all the new oil down in to the boiler (and the surging and such probably means it is pulling it up out of the boiler and depositing it in the piping every time it runs so just skimming what is in the boiler once isn't going to get rid of it.)

srmaietta

It’s remarkable how a full bucket skim quiets my system right down. About twice a year. And I have zero new piping.
Oily water will want climb a riser where as clean water will simmer a lot more mellow and you’ll get clean steam.. wil lespecially help if your near boiler piping is kinda sorta not that great (like mine)

A good long skim and then again a few days later may just work wonders.

Looks like an additive in your water? Pretty dark coloration is cut way back. 8-way recommends -a lot- which causes my system to balk a bit. Quarter the recommended dose does it for me, just a light translucent purple so I know it’s doing it’s job.

JUGHNE

I did read here of an easy hot skim;
bring the boiler up to good boil, shut off power, then slowly add water to raise the level to the skim port. Let just the smallest stream possible come out the port until cold.
Close port, drain down to proper level and fire boiler to drive O2 out of new water.

The Steam Whisperer

The Slant Fin actually can be skimmed much faster. There is a built in dam inside the boiler at the skimmer tapping that is about 8 inches across that allows the boiler to be skimmed very quickly.

What is happening sounds exactly like a dirty boiler. Skim and clean it daily for a couple days and then by weekly for a couple weeks and then weekly for a couple more. That usually gets most of the oils out. You may need to skim it ounce a month for a while too.

coelcanth

here's at least one of your problems, and it was mentioned in your previous thread too:

i think the way your boiler water feed is currently piped, there is no way to shut out the automatic water feed.

a big part of your current problem might be that your LWCO is getting triggered during a steaming cycle and then over filling the boiler.

you certainly have other issues, but this in combination with a bouncing waterline is probably what is causing your overfilling, and maybe the short cycling too. (if the LWCO gets triggered, the boiler shuts down until the autofeeder or returning condensate brings the waterline to a safe level)

it should be a pretty quick job to add one more shutoff valve before the autofeeder so that you can isolate it and be sure no excess water is being added to the boiler unless you add it yourself manually.

yes, your LWCO might still shut down the boiler if it gets triggered by a very unstable waterline, but after a good skimming, things should smooth out.

bvaughn76

VICTORIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, at least so far.

So, yes, did some skimming as it was a really good point my new piping brought in a lot of oil.

Finally got Steamworks out to the house for a quick boiler service. Ryan did not have a lot of nice things to say about SlantFin, primarily about the way the heatexchanger is set up where the passages are too small which makes the boiling more agitated. Totally makes sense.

So he reviewed everything. Then zeroed in on my return piping from the West Main. He made a point that my pitch was not enough. Proved it by opening a union in the middle of the return and we got water coming out. Hence why the West was slow to vent. So while his crew worked on the boiler service, I quickly went to work repitching the return more agressively. It was pitched, but clearly not enough to get over some potential dips.

My venting was approved. I could potentially move a Gorton from where I have two on the West return so I have one Gorton at the end of the main and another on that return at the boiler.

Main piping all looked good.

Did not like the 2" header. Said especially with the slant fin. He redid someone's header who had 2" before and said it got better but likely not worth the cost.

Radiator venting is good. All #4 or #6 with the exception of a 'C' on my sons radiator which has been slow.

Boiler is running nicely.

With that fix to the pitch on the West Return, the system is running great now. Nice even heating cycle. The rooms on the west main are not nice and warm in the morning. The short cycling is no more. I have the water level at the water line when the system is cold. I have steam in like 5 minutes and the end of the mains are hot in under 10.

Went to hell and back. I'd like to think I did all that other work and it was worth it and the return was just the last hurdle to clear. Right?

SeanBeans

@bvaughn76 good to hear!