Evaluating vacant house with single pipe natural gas steam heat

stsimon0073

I am considering the purchase of a house built in 1930 in the Cleveland area. The house has outstanding build quality (2 story 2400 sq ft French Norman architecture) but has been vacant for 3 years without heat. The boiler and hot water tank are broken and will need to be replaced. There is at least one broken water pipe.

I am trying to evaluate the likely worst case scenario for the heating system. If the entire system is not worth repairing because the radiators and steam supply pipes are damaged then the expense would be considerable and I would offer much less for the house. Given that there should have been little water in the supply to the radiators I am suspecting that they are not damaged. Am I likely wrong about that? If so, what is the best and lowest cost way to evaluate the system? I have read "Greening Steam" so I know a little about the heating system but have no direct experience. Any suggestions are most welcome. I would like to keep the single pipe steam if practical. The house has no air conditioning so there is no duct work.

ethicalpaul

If it’s a steam system I wouldn’t worry about the pipes and radiators

Edit: I meant to say the steam pipes. @Jamie Hall is spot on about the wet returns

Jamie Hall

It is really unlikely that there is any extensive damage to the radiators or steam supply lines or any dry returns. They are, after all, designed to drain. Which is not to say that there couldn't be a problem here and there -- just that if there is, it is likely to be only one or two odd spots.

Any pipes below the water line of the boiler, however, and the boiler itself... another story. If they were properly drained -- and did drain (not always true), they may be usable. However, I would plan on having to do any low level pipes in the basement when you do the boiler.

For what it's worth, for many years the main place I care for was closed in the winter. The heating system was not winterized in any way -- just drained -- and with the exception of one radiator which may have had freeze damage (though more likely just corrosion) it suffered no damage at all. Steam is very forgiving that way! In fact, one bitter winter I had to restart the system from a fully drained condition when it was 10 F out -- and in. And was able to!

stsimon0073

That's really good news, as I like the house a lot.

Hap_Hazzard

The biggest concern would be any wet returns, especially buried ones.

stsimon0073

This house has a full basement, which is dry. How do I determine if there is a wet return, and would a wet return be common in this type of system? The boiler is relatively small, so I suspect it was installed in the last 20 years, as the current owner paid top dollar for the house in 2003.

KC_Jones

@gerry gill is one of the best steam men and he works in Cleveland. If you want an evaluation on the system I’d call him to see if he can take a look.

I concur with all the above comments.

Let’s say, worst case, the wet return and boiler froze and broke. The cost of those repairs would be significantly less than putting in any other complete system. As said for vacancy and freezing, steam is very forgiving.

If the boiler is shot I’d consider that in the offer. We can’t talk $$$$$ here.

coelcanth

the normal waterline for the boiler was roughly somewhere near the middle of its sightglass.

if the boiler was not drained at all before being laid up, any pipe in the system below this level would have been filled with water.

sometimes a one pipe system has dry returns just below the level of the steam carrying mains (usually near the basement ceiling) to return condensate to the boiler.
sometimes the mains are dripped into wet returns, which are pipes at a level anywhere below the normal waterline of the boiler.
sometimes these wet returns are actually buried beneath the floor, and buried returns are often sources for leaks.

it is not usually a huge project to abandon leaky buried returns and replace them with new piping above the floor.
also, any return piping below the waterline can be done with copper which makes the job a bit quicker than installing threaded black pipe.
(copper is not to be used for any pipes that might see steam like boiler header, equalizer, mains, even dry returns, etc)

even if the boiler is not operating right now, it might still be possible to fill the system with water above its normal operating waterline (maybe to the level of the header) and check around for any sources of leaks

stsimon0073

Since I am thinking that I will likely replace the boiler with a wet-base boiler with a power gas burner, even if there is a damaged wet return I should be able to have the new boiler piped to avoid the old wet return, correct?

Hap_Hazzard

Correct. It's just a matter of whether they get in your way or how they look in a finished basement. You can often even change from a wet return to a dry return if it works out better.

stsimon0073

Good deal. This forum is such a great resource!

JUGHNE

If you have the full basement, you should be able to see if there is a wet return buried below it. Pipe(s) going into concrete at one end and popping up near the boiler. Sometimes they were not buried but just ran around the wall. But would still be located below the water line of the boiler, (about the center of the existing sight glass).

Most likely any original wet return piping is due to be changed, it sits there full of water and sludge from day one. And in your case probably has been frozen/split.

One reason for them being used was to gain more head room. If the return was hanging from the ceiling (considered a dry return) it would have to be sloped back to the boiler to drain. This would add to the head knocker items. Dry returns should drain dry and are not prone to pipe rot.

It would be to your benefit to call a steam pro such as Gerry Gill and pay whatever for his time and get a good estimate for a correctly installed system.
This is a major investment for you and if you have a price in hand you have more room for negotiation for purchase.

Another item for discounting the house price is asbestos insulation removal if needed. That may be a fairly major expense.

We love pictures here.

stsimon0073

The Point of Sale inspection has already been done and did not cite the asbestos on the steam pipes. Ohio allows homeowners to remove and dispose of asbestos as long as it is properly sealed in approved bags. I might remove it before having the boiler work done. I know how to use proper breathing protection and a hazmat suit. I will likely touch base with Mr. Gill before going much further on this.

Steamhead

stsimon0073 said:

...... I will likely touch base with Mr. Gill before going much further on this.

Best thing to do.

JakeCK

> @KC_Jones said:
> @gerry gill is one of the best steam men and he works in Cleveland. If you want an evaluation on the system I’d call him to see if he can take a look.

I second this, for what it is worth.

JakeCK

> @stsimon0073 said:
> The Point of Sale inspection has already been done and did not cite the asbestos on the steam pipes. Ohio allows homeowners to remove and dispose of asbestos as long as it is properly sealed in approved bags. I might remove it before having the boiler work done. I know how to use proper breathing protection and a hazmat suit. I will likely touch base with Mr. Gill before going much further on this.

I had the asbestos pipe insulation professionally removed from my house, it was more affordable then one would think after taking into account supplies, time and personal risk involved in doing it your self.

BobC

A couple of decades ago I helped a neighbor remove asbestos for her 1918 mummy, the pipes were already bare. We wet the boiler down good the night before with water and surficant (photoflo) and did the same again while setting up for the job the next morning.

We both had masks and set up fans to establish positive airflow out the cellar door. She sprayed while I scraped it down, it took less than an hour including the cleanup. The surficant is the key.

Make sure you get good masks and don't get between the boiler and the fan exhausting out of the basement. Wet everything down good ank you'll keep loose asbestos to a bare minimum.

Bob