Troubleshooting a some finicky 2nd fl radiators in a 1929 single-pipe system. Pictures included.

mrfusion

Sorry, this was my fault for not using the right terminology and typing quickly. All good!

Steamhead

mrfusion said:

Thanks, I'll look into that. I did have an estimate done by PSE&G, the local gas utility to get a gas boiler installed. The price was about $12k and that didn't include removal of the basement oil tank and oil. I had another estimate from my plumber (I don't know if he's a steam expert per this forum, but he is a plumbing and heating guy) and the price was a bit lower and included the removal of the tank/oil. The PSE&G offer included 0% financing, while I'd have to pay the plumber all at once, whether in cash or financing on my own.

Any idea of what it would cost to have the piping addressed near the boiler as it is now? I don't want to put a lot of money into this oil boiler if I don't have to, but may invest a little if reasonable.

@mrfusion , we do NOT discuss pricing on this forum. See the website rules at the link in the yellow rectangle at the top of the page.

ethicalpaul

> @mrfusion said:
> Sorry, this was my fault for not using the right terminology and typing quickly. All good!

No sweat, I just wanted to clarify, thanks!

mrfusion

Steamhead said:

@mrfusion , we do NOT discuss pricing on this forum. See the website rules at the link in the yellow rectangle at the top of the page.

Fair enough, sorry about that.

Fizz

For quick venting Hoffman 1A no match for MOM 5, 6, C or D, and Heat Timer Varivalve is the quickest by far.

mrfusion

Thanks, I'll note those. It's been pretty cold here in NJ the last couple of days and I've managed to get heat working in the 2 radiators pretty regularly, but we'll see how it goes. It could be that the pipes aren't cooling as much as they had been because of the more frequent cycling.

The one thing I changed was that I shut the valve on one of the radiators in our sunroom downstairs. This particular radiator is actually one of the last 2 on the main (just after the two 2nd floor radiators I was originally having trouble with), but on the 1st floor. I had it closed earlier in the season because there are 2 radiators in a relatively small room that we're not in very much, but I did have it open after installing the new vents.

The interesting thing about this room, is that one of these radiators is of a different style from the rest in the house. I'm not sure if it was added later to the system? Perhaps the boiler isn't happy having to heat one more radiator if it wasn't meant to be there? I'm not sure if my theory is even possible. After a few days, if everything is working well still, I'll open it up again and see what happens.

ethicalpaul

You might not have been speaking too literally, but the boiler has no knowledge of any piping or radiators. It just makes steam, and the steam just goes to the lowest pressure area available to it.

Imagine yourself as steam in the boiler getting pushed out, think about where the low pressure is. That's where you go.

If steam doesn't go to a radiator, it's because there is higher pressure in that radiator than other places the steam can go.

It's really very similar to why water doesn't flow uphill, not even being sarcastic.

Also, boilers hate to be anthropomorphized, so don't get them mad!

mrfusion

haha, ok. I'll make sure it doesn't get mad!

I meant that maybe the boiler isn't powerful enough to get the steam up to the 2nd floor radiators if it has one too many radiators on the system, if that's possible. Anyway, I'll keep experimenting.

mrfusion

Strangely I have one 2nd floor radiator that is on one of the earlier runouts on the main. I have a vent on there that I've tried essentially setting to 0 because it's in a room that we're rarely in (guest bedroom). I'm not sure how air can be getting out of the port because it's completely covered, but it gets hot without fail, no matter what.

ethicalpaul

How long after the burn begins does it take for steam to first start to reach it?

Or even better, how long between when steam is first reaching the header and when steam first reaches it?

And just for curiosity, what size pipe is the riser?

Hap_Hazzard

mrfusion said:

Strangely I have one 2nd floor radiator that is on one of the earlier runouts on the main. I have a vent on there that I've tried essentially setting to 0 because it's in a room that we're rarely in (guest bedroom). I'm not sure how air can be getting out of the port because it's completely covered, but it gets hot without fail, no matter what.

If the vent has a float, try turning it upside-down. This makes the float close the vent by gravity, assuming the float and float seat are good. If it still gets hot, try replacing the vent with a plug. If it still gets hot, you've got a leaky radiator. Try shutting it off with the supply valve. If that doesn't work, you've got a bad valve too, and it's really not your day. Go back to bed.

ethicalpaul

I thought he said it was already a plug

But he said "completely covered". What does that mean, @mrfusion ?

mrfusion

ethicalpaul said:

How long after the burn begins does it take for steam to first start to reach it?

Or even better, how long between when steam is first reaching the header and when steam first reaches it?

And just for curiosity, what size pipe is the riser?

@ethicalpaul I'm assuming you mean the radiator that gets hot in the guest bedroom even though the vent is set to essentially 0? I will have to time it and get back to you, but it is fairly quick. The runout pipes are all 1.25" except for one to the 2nd floor bathroom, which is 1". That radiator is smaller than the rest in the house, which are otherwise all the same size.

It's not a plug, but it's a Hoffman 1A with the cap set so that the vent hole is completely covered by by the cap, whereas normally it would be partially covered depending on the setting, as you probably know.

I will try @Hap_Hazzard 's advice on turning over the vent and see what happens. If the radiator is leaky, I would expect to see some evidence of water or steam coming out of it somewhere.

ethicalpaul

OK yes that clears it up for me. I agree with @Hap_Hazzard that turning the vent upside down will be a great next thing to try.

Hap_Hazzard

If you can't turn the vent over, you might be able to tape over the hole, though this might require removing the adjustable part to get at it.

Those things generally aren't air-tight even when set to zero, but I'd think it would be less than a Gorton #4.

BobC

The Hoffman 1a has a lot of slop in the cap, you may have a venting hole where you don't think you have.

You have to center that cap on the valve body as you tighten the screw.

Bob

Syljay

"An informed consumer is our best customer." Sy Sims

I would start here and save yourself lots of time and grief.
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/a-steam-heating-primer/
Once you understand the above listed Primer. then buy the steam heating bible.
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/the-lost-art-of-steam-heating

Everything you are doing and going to do . . I already did . . a number of years ago. The book "The Lost Art of Steam Heat" was invaluable.

These are my original posts, questions, answers:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1242967

Fred

Aside from what others have said about the near boiler piping being problematic (not at all correct) I also noted that the Bigmouth vent you installed is at a 45 degree angle. If it works at all, it probably isn't consistent. The vent needs to stand vertical.

ethicalpaul

Hmm, does it though?

Anyway his is vertical I think. I count two 45s but it is a challenging photo

mrfusion

Hap_Hazzard said:

If you can't turn the vent over, you might be able to tape over the hole, though this might require removing the adjustable part to get at it.

Those things generally aren't air-tight even when set to zero, but I'd think it would be less than a Gorton #4.

I was able to easily turn it over since it was newly installed. The radiator did not heat, so at least I don't have a leaky radiator. I have since swapped it out for another Hoffman 1A, but I think it is possible that there could have been a less than ideal seal on the threads on the first one because I think I felt a little air as I turned it. I've put on some teflon tape on the other vent. I originally had teflon tape on all of these vents but it had worn off a bit after pulling them off a few times, testing, draining drops of moisture out, etc. It still heats pretty hot, but maybe a little slower. It is one of the early radiators on the main pipe.

mrfusion

BobC said:

The Hoffman 1a has a lot of slop in the cap, you may have a venting hole where you don't think you have.

You have to center that cap on the valve body as you tighten the screw.

Bob

Thanks, yes, I have found that out and have been careful to take the top screw off completely and then hold the cap where I want it (trying to make sure the vent port is covered at the rate roughly idealized by the number on the cap), and then screwing the nut back on. I have one older Hoffman 1A (made in the USA!) that has a different top design which seems much more precise. Why they decided to change it is anyone's guess.

mrfusion

Syljay said:

"An informed consumer is our best customer." Sy Sims

I would start here and save yourself lots of time and grief.
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/a-steam-heating-primer/
Once you understand the above listed Primer. then buy the steam heating bible.
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/the-lost-art-of-steam-heating

Everything you are doing and going to do . . I already did . . a number of years ago. The book "The Lost Art of Steam Heat" was invaluable.

These are my original posts, questions, answers:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1242967

Thanks, I was planning to purchase The Lost Art of Steam Heating. I'll check out the primer first though. That thread you linked to seems to be about replacing a boiler. Is that correct?

mrfusion

Fred said:

Aside from what others have said about the near boiler piping being problematic (not at all correct) I also noted that the Bigmouth vent you installed is at a 45 degree angle. If it works at all, it probably isn't consistent. The vent needs to stand vertical.

It may be tough to see in the photo, but the vent is level in reality. There are two 45 degree bends in the assembly.

Hap_Hazzard

mrfusion said:

Thanks, I was planning to purchase The Lost Art of Steam Heating.

Makes a great Christmas gift!

Mike_Sheppard

Perhaps the burner is underfired or the the boiler is sooted - reducing your steam output capacity. The run outs to the problem radiators may be sagging. You can take the air vent off the radiator and hold a match up to the hole. If you see it huffing in and out it’s likely water pooling in the run outs.

mrfusion

I'll double check the runouts but they are not long off of the main before they go vertical in the walls up the 2nd floor, so not a lot of room for sagging. I've managed to get the system a bit better balanced now. The last radiator on the second floor, which has been the most problematic still gets warm a bit late in the cycle when set to 6 on the Hoffman 1A and is acceptable, but I've found that if I remove the screw, I obviously have another port on the top of the vent and it vents faster and gets hotter quicker. I'm experimenting, but I haven't found any downside to this.

Dan_NJ

mrfusion said:

...
Skimming from the top port of the sight glass is an interesting idea. I will take a look and see how I can do that.

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO2oR9JhF0M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z8v1YOQcM4

mrfusion

Thanks for the videos, looks interesting.

Dave in QCA

IT'S PROBABLY THE VENTS.
Yes, there are a number of things that should be different on your near boiler piping, but you have said everything was working fine before you changed some downstairs vents. And now, the downstairs vents are working fine, but you're having problems with a couple upstairs radiators.

It can't be said often enough. VENT YOUR MAINS FAST AND YOUR RADIATORS SLOW.... VERY SLOW.
For reasons exactly like you describe, I DO NOT LIKE the 1A vent. The adjusting mechanism is so sloppy that you can't tell what is going on. My recommendation is to do the following. Re-adjust ALL of your 1A vents to setting 3. But, when you do it, remove the retainer screw completely so that you can see that it is centered. Notice, with the ring turned to where the arrow aligns with #3, you can move the adjusting ring from side to side, which varies the coverage of the vent port from completely covered to almost completely uncovered. When it is centered, the vent hole is only 1/4 to 1/3 uncovered. Hold the wring firmly in place with one hand while you put the screw in with the other. Tighten it easily, while continuing to hold the ring. Do this to all of your vents and then see what you have. Wait a day before adjusting anything more. If a room is too warm, adjust it lower. If a room is cold, adjust the vent upward, but a very small amount.

Let us know if this helps you out. I'm pretty sure it will.
My most extreme example comes from a house that had Hoffman 40 vents throughout. There were lots of other problems, a new boiler got installed and new 1A vents throughout the first floor. Some of the radiators were blazing hot, others were slow. One would not heat at all. I ran the boiler until all of the radiators were totally HOT, but one radiator got no steam at all. Even with the 1A vent full open, it Was stone cold. I went through the train of thought that it must be plugged up. It wasn't. Finally, slowed down all of the vents to a setting equal to a #40. Bingo. It worked like a charm.

mrfusion

Thanks for your comment. You're right, I think it was the vents, and I have since managed to get things under control. The downstairs vents are all set very slow, mostly around 1. A couple of the upstairs radiator vents are also slow and then the one that was not heating is now on a fast setting. Seems to be working well.

I have been setting the 1A by taking the set screw out completely and making sure the port is properly covered by the desired amount and holding it there while putting the screw back in.

I probably wouldn't have bought a bunch of 1A's if I had known about the dumb design they now have. I was fooled a bit because I had one on the system (from before we owned the house) that was an old-school 1A with a top that is much more precise. I figured the new ones would be similar. Why they changed it is beyond me.

Thanks for the help everyone. Eventually this boiler will be replaced with a gas-fired unit, and hopefully the installer will pipe it properly!