Fire Museum Part II

KC_Jones

I originally posted about this place last year in this thread:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/169000/fire-museum-in-town

Well this year they had a new boiler installed and are having issues. The main issue is uneven heating, like not even close. So I discussed giving them a system evaluation and advise them on corrections for the balance problems. I am trying to help them out as it's a non profit organization that isn't getting rich. So I went last night for my first walk through of the system.

I started with the new boiler, and surprise it isn't piped correctly. The boiler is a Weil Mclain EGH-105. It isn't hateful, but has issues that I made them aware of. The header is pitched away from the equalizer (severely) and there is a reduction in the horizontal and it's low, measured 24" to top of header. The Hartford loop connection is ~2" above the normal water line. Shockingly they used both tappings full size (3") into a 3" header, so at least those minimum specs were met. I was in the basement for ~20 minutes and the boiler fired 3 times, I believe they have a thermostat setting problem that needs resolved. Another thing I noticed and would like input from someone more experienced is how the thermostat is wired. When the call for heat stopped all power was killed to the boiler, this didn't seem right to me based on experience with my own EG boiler. What I first noticed was the VXT water feeder went dark every time the call for heat ended. I was under the impression all safeties and the water feeder should be powered continuously. I would appreciate comment on this as it seems like this will add excessive wear and tear on those controls. @EzzyT @Dave0176 you have a lot of experience with these, any thoughts? They have redundant safeties with manual reset, but the secondary LWCO is a float type. Thanks!

After the boiler I walked down the system. I will give best description here. The system is a 1 pipe, first floor is down feed with drips at each radiator and the upstairs is up feed counter flow, or typical 1 pipe off the same main. The mains run around the ceiling of the first floor. There isn't a full basement so this is the only place the pipes could be. Main building has Column style radiators, the newer part (1927) has tube type radiators. The garage bay has a huge pipe raidator, 10 sections, 49' of 1 1/4" pipe per "section". This is the main heat source for the garage and it doesn't heat at all, actually the only rads that heat are in the newer addition and a single one on the second floor in a bathroom. I did an EDR survey and the boiler is actually undersized, I calculated 1060.5 and the boiler is rated for 977. I told them this, but also said IMHO it is not a problem, once the venting is fixed.

There is only 1 main vent, but 3 mains, no place for main vents on the others. I believe this is the main problem, no pun intended. This probably explains the 6 PSI setting on the pressuretrol.

I will continue commenting on this thread as things come up and any questions I have that I can't figure out. I will also work on getting some pictures, the place is actually quite awesome. I think I will be back there this weekend, so stay tuned.

Steamhead

Can you hear Beavis and Butt-head going 'huh-huh-huh" in the background? You should.............

KC_Jones

Steamhead said:

Can you hear Beavis and Butt-head going 'huh-huh-huh" in the background? You should.............

Almost. I asked him flat out how blunt he wanted me to be and he said "have at it". They want it right no matter what, but there is work to do. This was a discussion with the museum volunteers not the contractor.

One funny thing I saw. The contractor replaced a bunch of rad vents, but used Vent Rite #1, which are very slow. So in an effort to get steam to the rads and get balance they used one of the slowest vents available. Some of these rads have 70 EDR with 20+' of run out from the main. They need more venting on them in addition to needing main venting.

I'm guessing they have never seen the venting chart @gerry gill put together.

Also flex line on the gas connection with no visible sediment trap.
Shark Bite on the water lines, which makes me sad.
Rust all over some of the "brand new" fittings on the boiler.

He said they didn't charge any labor as a donation to the museum, but the price they paid is rougly 2.5 times what the boiler cost. Not sure where all the extra money went, but I have my doubts about the "no labor" claim. I'm sure they will take the tax write off though. The price he claims they paid seem appropriate for the install including labor, at least to my eye. I know we don't talk price, so I won't get into the numbers.

Canucker

I can't speak to the other issues but it sounds like they have the thermostat wired to a relay that cuts power when there isn't a call for heat. Every other control sounds like it's wired to the boiler. I had a similar situation when I had my boiler switched to a multi zone system from a single zone. They couldn't figure out how to connect the zone control and have the boiler pump shut down between calls. I ended up fixing it for them and learned a bunch about the Taco control in the process

ethicalpaul

That's cool, @KC_Jones! You are getting into steam heaven for sure! No pics?

I couldn't find where WM publishes their electrical, but here is a Peerless. Like you said, some stuff gets power regardless of the thermostat.

- LWCO
- Vent Damper

Without power after the thermostat opens, how will the vent damper close, for example? I'm sure this is the kind of thing you're concerned about.

KC_Jones

Now that I think about it, I don't think it had a vent damper...

Have to add that to my list of things to check.

I am concerned about proper function as well as excessive wear and tear on the electronics. I am of the opinion they don't like to be powered on and off excessively, kind of like light bulbs. Also powering the auto fill on and off makes no sense.

Did I mention it's brand new and showing 57 gallons already?

ethicalpaul

Wow that doesn't sound good. I'm sure you'll get them where they want to be though

KC_Jones

On the bright side the basement could easily double as a sauna...oh wait that's not a good thing is it?

Hap_Hazzard

Not if you're paying for it.

JUGHNE

Low hanging fruit might be to change the CPH on the tstat.
Won't fix the wiring but maybe some of the short cycling unless it is banging off on that 6PSI setting.

KC_Jones

@JUGHNE agreed. I wasn’t familiar with the thermostat they had or I would have changed it while I was there. I looked it up last night and according to the Honeywell instructions it can only be set for heat type (setting 200), not CPH (normally setting 240 I think). So I can check that, but not sure how much it will help. We shall see.

Once I finish the write up I’m pretty sure the contractor will balk at my suggestions, which will amount to pretty much re-piping the boiler and, in part, re-wiring the controls.

I attached a pic of the boiler.

Canucker

@KC_Jones that was my hint that the wiring was messed up on mine. When the relay killed the power, everything stopped. The damper being left open all the time was the tell

KC_Jones

> @Canucker said:
> @KC_Jones that was my hint that the wiring was messed up on mine. When the relay killed the power, everything stopped. The damper being left open all the time was the tell
If their damper was there it would be open, but apparently it wasn’t installed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

The controls should be powered so the auto feeder can work at any time. I am sure the wiring is an easy fix.

I don't understand the substandard piping. All they have to do is read the manual and follow it

SeanBeans

Would that CSST pass inspection where you are?

KC_Jones

> @SeanBeans said:
> Would that CSST pass inspection where you are?

I’m not sure, I’m not a fan, but not sure about the Pennsylvania or local codes on that. Perhaps someone else more familiar can chime in? That would be the type of feedback I’m looking for since it’s outside my knowledge base. I only run black pipe for gas so I’ve never asked about it.

I’m mainly looking at the steam and functionality side of things.

My write up will list things that are outright wrong or not to manufacturers spec and then separately things I feel are subpar or not best practices. Again it’s a non profit so they aren’t going to spring for an oversized drop header and the contractor would possibly walk if pushed too hard.

Certainly proper controls and manufacturers spec can’t be argued.

mattmia2

Might prioritize from what is wrong but will maybe work and what needs to be fixed to make it sort of work. Venting obviously is number 1, pitch is 2.

If the boiler is a little undersized and you're building pressure something is seriously wrong.

KC_Jones

Ok, opinion needed on this one.

I look at the system in greater detail and have concerns about the main venting location. Currently the main vents (all failed and completely inadequate) are in the basement. The location only has ~7" of vertical space to the above concrete floor, so there is not cutting holes or making room. The system is an overhead down feed system with drips. So all the condensate is coming at this vent location, vents are well above the boiler water line.

Question for the more experienced. Would the condensate pose an issue or am I worried for no reason? Since head height is a concern here I was going to suggest big mouth vents, but as has been pointed out many time they do not have a float. Gorton #2 will not fit, and a manifold of Gorton #1's would be extremely cost prohibitive.

The only other option is cutting into the overhead main pipes upstairs which is again cost prohibitive and probably won't be well received given this is a museum and I am suggesting cutting and threading pipe around, well, a museum.

I am open to any and all suggestions and thoughts on the situation.

To reiterate my preference is to utilize the current vent location and use big mouth vents.

Thanks.

Gsmith

Pictures or a sketch of the mains and returns would be helpful. You can put the main vents anywhere after the last radiator runout, even on the dry returns or dry drips (not below the water line of course). You could weld on a threadolet on the dry returns or drips and put on the vents there wherever space permits.

KC_Jones

I thought I took pics up in the firehouse of the mains, but must have missed that. The old guys like to talk a lot and can distract me at times.

This is a picture of the vents in the basement. They are right behind the boiler just before dropping into the wet return. The mains are not in the basement, they are at the ceiling of the first floor of the fire house. So these returns drop from the end of the mains and across the basements ceiling to this point.



My concern and question is, do others feel this would be a bad location for vents, keeping in mind that any other location will require re-piping to add venting locations. There are 2 mains and 5 returns, some from end of main, some from the radiators directly. Since the first floor is down feed the radiators all have return pipes buried in concrete.

ethicalpaul

I love the rusty halo over each vent!

KC_Jones

ethicalpaul said:

I love the rusty halo over each vent!

There is a lot of ugly in this boiler room....not just steam hackery, but poor workmanship in general.

Some things I'm pretty sure I could have done better blindfolded.

Someone asked about the CSST being legal, well I don't know about that, but I'm pretty sure having it sitting against a bunch of jagged metal and putting strain on the valve train is a bad idea. See pics of inside and outside.

Steamhead

Those main vents are sitting on short risers. The Gorton #2 comes with its own built-in riser, so it you remove the existing risers it should fit. The vent location at the ends of the mains is not ideal, but should work as long as the pressure is kept low as it should be.

And whoever installed that CSST should not be in the business.

KC_Jones

Just showed the picture to my wife and she said “the gas line is going to get cut”.

STEVEusaPA

I'm going to have to wait an hour before I can eat dinner.

kevink1955

Why is there a ball valve in the gas train after the electric valve. Never seen that before on an atmospheric boiler.

JUGHNE

One of my school projects has an attic express main.
There was an F&T at the base of each riser to the attic.
The returns were originally dry returns under the floor going to a 1/2 basement where the boiler cond pump is. They were replaced and I have suspicion that became wet/dry returns and not venting air to the cond pump as they should.
Having the 1932 print showing the attic mains, I went to, you might say, the corners of the building at the end of the mains and cut into the down feed drops on the lower story. Added a tee and a 4' riser of 3/4" then installed B&JBM as needed. Installed a ball valve under each venting bank in the event of water going crazy.

This really sped up the main venting rather than going thru newly orificed supply valves and empty trap bodies. There is a standard rad trap for the drip of each drop.

The dry return drops in your basement could have a tee cut into the drop and then a lengthy vent riser would let you load up on venting.

That gas train inside the boiler is interesting. I assume the copper tube leaving with the CSST goes outside to vent regulators. The first gas stop valve looks old school to me. I have removed some and saved them myself because of the 1/8 pipe tap ahead of the valve.

mattmia2

The ball valve looks not rated for combustible gas...

KC_Jones

The ball valve, as strange as it is, is in the Weil Mclain manual. If I am reading the manual correctly it actually comes with the gas train from Weil Mclain.

They used to short of a nipple on the vertical run and the entire gas train is too low causing the issue with the casing and gas line.

Call me crazy, but I would have much rather changed out a nipple, next to a union, than break out the tin snips and hack away at the casing. Of course I have standards so...

JUGHNE

Would the ball valve be in the gas train so you could fire the pilot without the main burner coming on?
Extended gas test ports look added?

SeanBeans

The gas piping on those WMs have a tendency to be too low almost everytime.

ChrisJ

> @SeanBeans said:
> The gas piping on those WMs have a tendency to be too low almost everytime.

Change one of the two nipples?

SeanBeans

It might just be on the knockdowns? I feel like the few EG knockdowns I’ve done it was too low

KC_Jones

I'm back!
So I am finalizing my recommendations which cover all aspects of the system, from the boiler piping, wiring, thermostat, gas piping to the typical venting.

I am stuck on one aspect of the venting and hoping for some input from someone more experienced. They have a large pipe radiator in the main garage bay that has an EDR of 212.5 and contains ~490' of 1 1/4" pipe, yes that is FEET of pipe. This is divided into 10 different runs all into a 10 port manifold on either end. It also makes a 90° turn at one end, with all 10 pipes. It's actually quite a site to behold. Sorry I couldn't get a picture as it has a bunch of fire equipment displays in front of it.

So I am thinking this needs to be handled with a main vent not a radiator vent, possibly multiple main vents. Possibly start with a Gorton #1 and go up from there? Possibly go to a Gorton #2 main vent? Something else entirely?

I am open to suggestion and fully understand this may not be right first time out of the gate. For reference it currently has a Hoffman 4A main vent installed and it never heats. Well pretty much none of the building heats currently so that probably doesn't mean much.

ethicalpaul

Is the Hoffman 4A venting any air?

KC_Jones

> @ethicalpaul said:
> Is the Hoffman 4A venting any air?
Steam isn’t even getting to the feed pipe due to the inadequate main venting so I can’t really say. My gut says it won’t be enough given the amount of piping. Also this is the primary source of heat for the garage bay, so it needs to heat up.

ethicalpaul

Don't you wish you could take a wrench to it, remove the Hoffman and see what happens with no vent? This is what drives me a little crazy about the trade regulations.

Any kid who's never seen steam before can do it as long as he is working for a guy, but you can't touch it.