Questionable near boiler piping

ScottSecor

Just looked at this job, found the oil fired boiler is leaking and must be replaced. I suspect the boiler is more than forty years old and perhaps as much as sixty years old. It's a Winkler C.I.4, serial number E.4 699 if it matters.




I've read many articles and many different manufacturer's boiler installation guides over the years and none of them sanction this piping arrangement. I've also been to numerous seminars that were geared specifically towards steam heating systems (Dan Holohan mostly). Yet, somehow these heating systems worked (not sure how well, new homeowners) and I'm told there were no leaks until recently. Most 'experts' on this website would have us think that the boiler would fail within a week of the original install and the house would never heat with this piping method. Around here we see steam boilers piped similarly to this often, sometime on older systems and sometimes on newer systems. Ironically, almost none of these boilers appear to fail prematurely.

I am the first to admit we follow the manufacturer's recommendation as a minimum. By doing so we comply with warranty requirements and hopefully the new system performs better while consuming less fuel than the old system.

My point here is that it amazes me how many systems we see here in NJ that are installed wrong, yet somehow work reasonably well for such a long time!

Hap_Hazzard

My boiler was piped like this for about 25 years, and it still worked and didn't crack or leak, but it's still wrong.

I suspect that part of the reason the piping didn't pull the sections apart is that the unions made the risers somewhat flexible.

The thing that goes through my mind when I see a boiler piped like the one you've shown is that it could have been done right with about the same amount of materials, so, considering that it's been wasting money every day it's been in use, there's really no excuse for not doing it right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jamie Hall

Perhaps the most important thing to remember about steam is that while there is a best way to do things, and often a manufacturer's way, steam is astonishingly forgiving. Sometimes you look at something and think there's no way that's going to work -- and it does anyway

ethicalpaul

I agree with all of the above and yet steam has a reputation of being cranky and cantankerous and always troublesome. And yet it often just goes on working and keeping people warm even though it wasn't given a decent shot at proper operation. Makes me almost feel sorry for it.

Hap_Hazzard

The thing I find discouraging is that people with systems that aren't piped right get tired of banging pipes and high heating bills and hire someone to fix it who tells them that the problem is that it's steam heat, so they end up paying for an unnecesary conversion to hydronic or scorched air instead of just getting the piping issues corrected.

Robert O'Brien

> @ScottSecor said:
> Just looked at this job, found the oil fired boiler is leaking and must be replaced. I suspect the boiler is more than forty years old and perhaps as much as sixty years old. It's a Winkler C.I.4, serial number E.4 699 if it matters.
>
> (Image)
>
>
>
> I've read many articles and many different manufacturer's boiler installation guides over the years and none of them sanction this piping arrangement. I've also been to numerous seminars that were geared specifically towards steam heating systems (Dan Holohan mostly). Yet, somehow these heating systems worked (not sure how well, new homeowners) and I'm told there were no leaks until recently. Most 'experts' on this website would have us think that the boiler would fail within a week of the original install and the house would never heat with this piping method. Around here we see steam boilers piped similarly to this often, sometime on older systems and sometimes on newer systems. Ironically, almost none of these boilers appear to fail prematurely.
>
> I am the first to admit we follow the manufacturer's recommendation as a minimum. By doing so we comply with warranty requirements and hopefully the new system performs better while consuming less fuel than the old system.
>
> My point here is that it amazes me how many systems we see here in NJ that are installed wrong, yet somehow work reasonably well for such a long time!

It's more than 60 years old. Steam is fickle. One job piped completely wrong will be trouble free for years,another with a seemingly minor deviation from specs will be a nightmare.

ScottSecor

@Robert O'Brien I agree with you one hundred percent. Like most on this website, I've learned from my mistakes (especially on steam systems). Cheat on a steam heating system and it will cost you (if you have a conscience and reputation to uphold).

On some jobs we are the only bidder, on other jobs there could be as many as eight to ten bidders (typically on large commercial jobs). I can't count how many times another contractor won the bid on a simple house steam replacement boiler job only to get called back by the homeowner when the system under performs. Often when we arrive at the house we learn that the 'professional' installed the least expensive 175,000 BTU boiler and used a single 2" copper supply with a 2" header to feed the two steel 2.5" steam mains. You think to yourself, "I would be a rich man if I got X amount of dollars to install this boiler with that piping." Instead, you bite your tongue, act professional, fix the problem, make a small profit and gain a customer for life.

clammy

I have also seen boilers who’s nbp is way outta line and it works fine I m not saying great but fine . On those systems the one thing that seems common is usually the rest of the system is usually in good shape w insulation and short mains and short run outs and no one has done anything stupid like knuckle heading repairs done wrong .when it really seems to rear it’s head is on long mains servicing 1 st and second floors it s usually the 2 Nd floor rads farest from the boiler that where the steam just gives up the ghost just to heavy n lazy to do much unless the boilers running forever n the main n run outs are hot enough . I always chalk it up to the fact that I didn’t do it and that’s why it works cause if I did it I de be re piping it . But looking at that pic I do believe i would put that main off a new header rather then having a issue later w it piped off a equalizer drop . That’s gonna be fun to yank out it s been at least 20 years since I have n it wasn’t fun . Peace and good luck clammy

clammy

Yeah it is amazing how many terribly piped steam boilers there are in north jersey and like you stated there the one making the quick profit .very sad I can say at least 99 % are 2 inch copper no matter what size and there’s usually oversized as the gold standard .i had one that was a 6 section peerless piped completely wrong and 25 years old and worked I replaced w a 3 section piped it correctly and the home owner noticed a big difference in his radiators output And no short cycling image 25 years of short cycling omg Peace and good luck clammy

JStar

Those older boilers have a big steam chest which compensates for terrible piping. Modern sectional boilers are less forgiving, especially if they have side supplies.

SeanBeans

Denver is just as bad.
I saw a 7-8 section WM-EG With one tapping used.. that tapped had 1.5 copper going up to the old 4 inch header. You could hear the water just siphoning up into the mains