NYC is a tough place

SlamDunk

I understand the importance of permits, especially on natural gas lines but this seems cruel. A 60 year old deli is essentially shut down because a gas pipe was put in the wrong place sixty years ago. I have said it before, NYC is a tuff place to live.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-loesers-deli-shutdown-20191201-uxyfzs4kenfy3gmxr6cluxanlu-story.html

jbaskin

After that East Village explosion in 2015 (due to an illegal gas main tap) there was a crackdown...but of course instead of trying harder to find noncompliant installations they just made more hoops to jump through for the people who do comply. Of course who knows how dangerous this situation really is, maybe they made the right call, but the more scared people are of the inspectors the more chance they'll try to do it all illegally & quietly...

STEVEusaPA

I’m curious as to what exactly is wrong and what does it cost to actually fix it to make it...well..kosher.

kevink1955

Doubt the piping has been there for 60 years, I do not think there were cable operated fire system gas shutdowns that far back and that pipe compound would have been laughed at by the dead men. Not getting the whole story.

mattmia2

So what is the actual problem? is the inspection report a public record?

jbaskin

Here is the relevant violation (there are 8 open violations on the building!)

I OBSERVED IN LOSER'S KOSHER DELI IN THE BASEMENT HAVING FUTURES ON GAS PIPE. USING BUSHING ON GAS PIPE ALSO UNION GAS PIPE .ALSO ANSUL VALVE NOT INSTALLED CORRECTLY. HOT WATER HEATER USING FLEX HOSES ON WATER

jbaskin

Image of the violation ticket with some more details: https://nycserv.nyc.gov/NYCServWeb/ShowImage?searchID=VFVSTk5VMUVSWGxQUkd0NFYxRTlQUT09

mattmia2

that does not sound like something that is expensive to fix...

kevink1955

Did you know a 16 or 20 inch bike inner tube can be used to jump a missing gas meter, I did not till around 45 years ago I was installing a roof top unit in a renovated building. It was cold and the owner was pushing to get the heat on.

He had hired his own plumber to do the gas piping from basement to roof top. We were just completing the thermostat wiring and the plumber (who was only on the job 2 hrs at most) Asked if we were ready for gas. We had no idea how he could have completed the piping and got the gas company to turn it on so quickly as we knew there was no meter this morning.

We went to the basement with him and there was an inner tube and 2 stainless hose clamps in place of the meter. We told the owner we would not start up the unit with out the gas co passing the install, removed the wires from the disconnect and left.

We never got a call back for the start up or any calls for service so I have no idea what happened.

Got out of the commercial end and went to work for municipal gov shortly after and never looked back

STEVEusaPA

That’s some poor grammar. For something so important, should not have typos, nor should it be called a hot water heater. And exactly what are 'futures on gas pipe'?

SlamDunk

STEVEusaPA said:

That’s some poor grammar. For something so important, should not have typos, nor should it be called a hot water heater. And exactly what are 'futures on gas pipe'?

Maybe the gas line has tee's with plugs, for future expansion?
I agree, nothing on the report sounded like a death knell for the deli or a reason to shut off the gas.
As far as the flex lines on the hot water heater, I have SST braided shark bite flex line on mine. Got tired of re-plumbing hot water heaters with different dimensions.
I also agree the that news report was poorly written.

Why not call it a hot water heater?

STEVEusaPA

SlamDunk said:

...Why not call it a hot water heater?

Didn't think hot water needed to be heated. Calling it a water heater tells you all you need to know, right?

I don't know NYC, but my guess is, getting the work done is tough enough (dealing with contractor/scheduling) but getting the inspector back and then the board of health, to approve and re-open is probably a really hard thing to make happen.

ChrisJ

STEVEusaPA said:

SlamDunk said:

...Why not call it a hot water heater?

Didn't think hot water needed to be heated. Calling it a water heater tells you all you need to know, right?

I don't know NYC, but my guess is, getting the work done is tough enough (dealing with contractor/scheduling) but getting the inspector back and then the board of health, to approve and re-open is probably a really hard thing to make happen.

It's a heater to provide hot water. Ergo Hotwater Heater.
Not near as bad as VIN Number in my opinion.

Plenty of people say hot water boiler which is just completely wrong. It doesn't boil, or who needs to heat hot water?
What about steam boiler? Who needs to boil steam?

Not sure how I feel about the deli. Work was done without permits and was not done to local code. I do agree with @kevink1955 though, that work doesn't look 60 years old.

Steamhead

I don't think we know the whole story. I wouldn't be surprised if some fatcat had their eyes on that site, and the city did this to put the existing people out of business and free up the site for redevelopment.

I know of at least one time this has happened in Baltimore, which is at least as corrupt as NYC................

Larry Weingarten

Hi, Can't help it... the water heater heats cold water, so it's a cold water heater and a hot water maker. So, like @STEVEusaPA says, just call it a water heater

Yours, Larry

ChrisJ

Larry Weingarten said:

Hi, Can't help it... the water heater heats cold water, so it's a cold water heater and a hot water maker. So, like @STEVEusaPA says, just call it a water heater

Yours, Larry

And what about what you call a hot water boiler?
It doesn't boil...........

STEVEusaPA

Definition of a boiler is:
A fuel-burning apparatus or container for heating water.
When it's making steam...a steam boiler.
I, nor any of my ancestors named them...

SlamDunk

I see it now, the blue dope/tape.
Can't be 60 yrs old, but that new pipe could have been recent, permitted work attached to 60 yr old, un-permitted work that an inspector missed.
What was NYC plumbing life like 60 years ago? Did they have permits? Have all permits been digitized? Or,could there be a permit sitting in a box somewhere? 60 years without a problem doesn't sound like eminent danger to me.
"Didn't think hot water had to be heated..." That's profound!

STEAM DOCTOR

Water tank thermostat is set to 140 degrees. Temperature drops to 120. Fire goes on. You are heating hot water. Just an example. After initial installation, you are heating hot or warm water( whatever definition of hot or warm may be).

Larry Weingarten

Hi @ChrisJ , I looked it up and it seems it was part of a Soviet mis-information campaign... https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Hot-Water+Boiler
Yours, Larry

SlamDunk

I"m back on my soap box because when I visit home, I eat here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/08/nyregion/millie-peartree-fish-fry-soul-food-restaurant.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage

6-8 months to get the gas turned on? That is ridiculous! What great food this place served!

Jamie Hall

It all comes down, really, to when someone decides to legislate common sense and craftsmanship. Which doesn't work. The folks who want to dodge will always find a way to do it, and the folks who want to be legal will always get … um... can't think of a family friendly word.

SlamDunk

Reamed.

The mac & cheese this woman made was to die for! I hope she can hang on.

claptonv

for all you readers out NYC has set the standard for the world ; thats right . And though it might seem trivial ,peoples lives are at stake . If the guy that uses shark bites with flexible sst tubing of some sort ,finds it too complicated to re-pipe an itsy bitys teensy weensy 1/2 " pipe nipple ,then maybe something less complicated would be best .All gas piping in NYC shall be connected to an appliance with no plugged or capped outlets ,and the reasons are from hard learned lessons. but thats how we ,as humans learn .Isnt it?

ch4man

claptonv said:

for all you readers out NYC has set the standard for the world ; thats right . And though it might seem trivial ,peoples lives are at stake . If the guy that uses shark bites with flexible sst tubing of some sort ,finds it too complicated to re-pipe an itsy bitys teensy weensy 1/2 " pipe nipple ,then maybe something less complicated would be best .All gas piping in NYC shall be connected to an appliance with no plugged or capped outlets ,and the reasons are from hard learned lessons. but thats how we ,as humans learn .Isnt it?

so how do you pipe a dirt pocket with out a cap?
and who on earth would pipe a tepid water heater (hehehe) with 1/2" pipe.? 3/4" is standard

SlamDunk

It isn't the code I'm griping about. It is the bureaucracy that it takes to correct problems. There is so much red tape that hard working business people are losing their livelihoods waiting and communities suffer when they lose establishments like the ones mentioned above.

Only licensed and insured people can re-pipe an itsy-bitsy teensy weensy 1/2" pipe nipple and only the landlord, ConEd and the DOB can make it happen fast, without shutting down restaurants and handing tenants hot plates to cook meals for a family.

gennady

Now DOB requires plumber to submit proof of legality of existing gas work. I need to open permit to legalize boiler gas line on one of my jobs. DOB does not have a record of its inspections. Meanwhile the gas meter is there. Gas meter would not be installed by utility co without gas authorization. Go figure.
Also, appliance gas valve might be operated only by master plumber or his employee with full gas qualification. If any gas appliance gets replaced, gas finish physical inspection is required.
DOB inspector then can see everything and fail inspection. I think it is a good thing, because sometimes it is scary to see what was done with gas piping and appliances, and some landlords just do not care.

SlamDunk

It is a good thing. What is not good is who suffers during the time lapse between discovery and correction.