few questions about NG steamers

nde

24 years on a dunkirk oil steamer, converted to NG about 7 years ago. It fires fine still with no obvious leaks but after recent service was told should start thinking about saving up for another one as heating guy thought it may be nearing end of life. Had the chamber rebuilt around conversion time as it was collapsing but a fair amount of rust particles are accumulating in there now. Have to add maybe quart of water every 3 weeks nothing crazy, but does seem a bit more than you might lose via rads. He thinks it could be developing pin leaks in the block. I would ideally like to do a proactive swap in summer when things are not crazy busy or cold vs having it fail mid winter (runs about 6 months straight here) but in case it does fail this season I have started doing some research. From what I read 25+- years of use on boiler would be considered good.

To get ready I started looking around at a few natural gas steamers, this guy like slantfin or weil mclain, do they all use the burner trays vs power burner? My heating person says he thinks the power burners are better (he says the burner trays have more problems in his experience) but assume they have to be used on oil designed burner as the models I checked out all use burner trays. Are power burners only for oil or ng conversions?

I am wondering if oil steamer chambers are not great for NG power guns. The riello converter burner has been rock solid with zero downtime but has cracked the blast tube once, they swapped it for free but told me they thought it was b/c the dunkirk oil chamber was not totally designed for the long NG jet vs oil mushroom and was coming back a bit. That makes me think oil steamers are not really designed for power burners like the g400? Thoughts? and thanks, great site.

ethicalpaul

Just a quick response till the pros weigh in to give you something to google.

If you really love power burners you can get arguably the best boiler, the Burnham Megasteam with a 3rd party gas burner like the Carlin but it voids the boiler warranty (not a big concern imo)

But for me, I’d go atmospheric gas (burner trays as you say) because they are so much quieter even though a few percentage points less efficient. I got a Peerless but it was a close race against Weil-McClain.

Everyone here will tell you the installer is more important than the boiler and they’re not wrong except there’s no way I’d ever buy one with steam supply outputs at the side (vs the top)

Hap_Hazzard

I agree with everything @ethicalpaul says. I have a 36 year old Peerless atmospheric boiler that's still going strong. If & when I need to replace it, I'm going with another Peerless because

1. makes it easier to install (can keep the same piping)
   
2. 36 years and still going strong
   
3. great reputation
   
4. local company (35 mi.)
   

Where are you located, @nde?

nde

thanks, will check those peerless, casually it looks like it would be series 63...I did my own calculations and the current 259k input is about right but will recalculate again since it was some years ago. It looks like the 63 is either 230s or 280s whereas the WM has a 250k unit. I think that based on your comments, I would just go with the designed burner system vs the power burner, it is noisy which is my only complaint and do not really want a oil designed boiler if that is what power guns only work on due to comments above regarding blast tube blowback.

I am in downeast maine area, not too many steam people around here. Whoever installed this dunkirk in the mid 90s did seem to do it right, nice black pipe header, equalizer, hartford loop all per the manual specs but that guy is retired/company closed. When moved in 10 years ago I got Dans book and read it through. Adjusted the system by taking out worthless vacuum main vents (assume from coal days) which were real slow and put some big Gortons mains on there (best thing I did), removed all the junky HD rad vents and used gortons or hoffmans on those, installed a low pressure gauge so I could confirm the system ran on an ounce or two, did the sizing estimate to confirm correct boiler size.

I like the current heat guy but he and I did do a little back/forth when he mentioned copper header on new install. I told him no way and he said that with current alloys and properly done, copper header meets all specs and are just as good. There is a copper paper posted here somewhere that said the same thing. To his credit he told me no problem if I wanted black pipe but it would cost more due to labor. He did say they have been doing copper headers without issue for some time, who knows. Most manual I look at have what seems to be black pipe in drawings, or at least specify swing joints which I read to mean black pipe threaded but perhaps I am wrong.

Hap_Hazzard

I swear by those junk HD radiator vents! They sell Maid-o-Mist which are, for my money, as good as the Gortons and use the same numbering system, The thing I really love about them is that the orifices are interchangeable, so when you're experimenting with balancing, you can change orifices instead of vents. The only caveat is that HD is much too nice about accepting returns. Some people seem to return their old vents in the new box, and they put them right back on the shelf, so either buy unopened ones or else take the vent out and make sure it's new and that it's what the box says it is. Or buy them from Amazon--they sell them too.

nde

Sorry to slander HD, they were not maid o mists, something else with dialer. Most would clog with water and have to be removed/blown out. I think the gortons have worked the best, the main ones reduced rad time heating by easy 10 minutes.

Hap_Hazzard

nde said:

Sorry to slander HD, they were not maid o mists, something else with dialer. Most would clog with water and have to be removed/blown out.

Yeah. Those are "USAV" vents. Pure crap. Besides, I hate it when they sell something made in China with "USA" or "American" in the name.

nde said:

I think the gortons have worked the best, the main ones reduced rad time heating by easy 10 minutes.

Yes, good main venting is really important. I have 3 Gorton #1s on one main and a #2 on the other. Maid-o-Mist doesn't make any vents big enough for mains.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@nde
now would be the time to calculate your radiation load so you can get the right sized boiler.

If it was me I wouldn't replace it until it starts leaking

Whatever new boiler you pick (I like Peerless) just make sure the installer follow the piping diagram in the manual.

No copper on steam. You can use copper for any wet returns

BobC

Was your guy going to solder that copper header or was it going the be a crimp job. Solder joints don't move and that can be tough on a boiler, crimped sounds better but will they last the test of rime?

Threaded steel has been working well over 100 years, it costs more but sometimes you get what you pay for.

Bob

nde

I did do edr calculation last night and it does show boiler to be oversized. I had done same years ago but incorrectly used column vs tube chart which give a higher number. Via the WM charts the current boiler is oversized by 40%+-. Never noticed since it is well balanced and swings are never more than 2 degrees on programmed thermostat. Years ago out of curiosity I ran a 6 swing and it did start to build pressure after almost 45 minutes straight firing, otherwise it run 1-2 ounces avg of 20 minute run to satisfy therm for baseline or 30 minutes for 2 degree swing which I find the best sweet spot for this setup. Never builds pressure to rads even venting unless we are at coldest days/nights of the year (0-20 below F +-) and that does not happen even every winter. Kind of makes me wonder if I did EDR right but have gone over the numbers 3x times. I have looked a numerous post regarding pickup, net vs gross blah blah and keep coming back to 40% oversize. No pipes insulated though which is something I would like to correct going forward.

I will not allow a copper header and would kind of prefer to let boiler go to failure, but have to assume around here when it is sub zero and need a rush job you are going to pay more and have a 3 day headache. Advantage of summer is you have plenty of time to install, skim, shop around if needed, etc. Maybe this summer I will try to remove the top jacket/exhaust to look at the crown. Would you think a quart a month would indicate small pin leak? It never runs to point of steam coming from rad vents so assume it is losing elsewhere. All piping including returns is visible with no signs of leaks.

Fred

A quart a month is not indicative of any kind of leak. You can lose that much due to evaporation. Keep in mind that vents are open between heat cycles and even during a heat cycle, until steam closes them.

nde

Just got a quote for SGO, installer swears the sgo with power burner is better option (vs EG), curious if any pros feel the same way. Still adding small amounts of water as per typical use not seeing any leaks. At beginning of season I did vacuum up a bunch or red/brown dust under casting area after annual service when it was noted that casting could be failing. It is accumulating again, a very fine brownish/red powder exactly what you would expect from cast iron, any idea what is going on?
I am wondering about possibility of reusing piping to save some $. Current quote would be new black pipe tapping and pipe tied into header/ feeder risers (2 mains) but reuse those and hartford loop. The current dunkirk is pipe on 2 tappings as per manual. The WM is a one tap. The 2.5 tapping are the same, header at 2.5 is same. Measurements for water height and header height on current piping are within WM guidlelines.
Could one tie into the front tap riser and remove/plug the second at run to header? In the WM sgo piping chart the swing joint goes right vs left (facing front) so may be an issue with stack venting placement which could make reusing moot point Installer says hard to reuse near piping esp when removing old boiler. I am fine with that and if so will have it specified in contract to be piped as per manual but this current setup has delivered nice quiet steam. Pic of current piping below.
Still thinking about EG. Its tapping is opposite side of SGO, not sure for this reason if any of the existing piping can be reused which could make it a higher cost to install. Having installer come back to answer a few questions and will ask about EG option then but he keeps saying the SGO is better.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your piping looks good. I am sure your installer can match the piping up so it will work properly and within Weil Mclain guidelines. See the other post running on "Burnham IN " boilers for some SGO discussions. The SGO is a good boiler

mikeg2015

OMG a boiler that was piped correctly. imagine that... Someone read a manual.

Red dust is iron oxide. Probably rust forming from a leak somewhere. Or red gasket material is deteriorating.

ChrisJ

mikeg2015 said:

OMG a boiler that was piped correctly. imagine that... Someone read a manual.



Red dust is iron oxide. Probably rust forming from a leak somewhere. Or red gasket material is deteriorating.

I wouldn't consider some surface rust to indicate a leak.
There's often plenty of condensation on the fire side if the block is cold.

dopey27177

Red dust is iron oxide. Where does it come from or how does it wind up on the castings.

Power burners and oil burners shut off and the air inside of the boiler is hot. The air in the basement is much colder than and is sucked into the boiler because hot air rises. Te cooler air in basement contains some moisture and that condenses on the cast iron and will eventually cause the rust deposits.

I remember many years ago when I was out with the tools and also in my boiler in my house the atmospheric gas burner had a pilot light that was left on for 12 months. Never had rust in those boilers. The rusting conditions even with atmospheric boilers began when the electronic pilot light was installed.

The little pilot light that gave off so little heat was hot enough to keep moisture from collecting on the cast iron and causing rust to deposit on the cast iron.

Jake

Ps.

My boiler was a Richardson pancake boiler it was 50 years old when I replaced it. I replaced it with an American standard 120,000 Btu input boiler in 1970, I sold the house in in 1976. Still keep in touch with the people that bought it. The boiler is still going strong. The boiler is now 44 years old and still working.

The guy I sold it to is getting ready to retire, he was an oil burner tech when he bought the house, Became the project manager in the oil company he works for and now like me he will fade into the stratosphere,

Jake

clammy

I think I would look more at peerless for either a gas or oil w power burner over Weil or slant fin but every installer has there preferences . Don’t forget to look in your water hardiness tds and add a de mineralized filter ,depend where u are in my area water is hard . Peace and good luck clammy

nicholas bonham-carter

Clammy, what sort of demineralizing filter do you recommend?
I presume it has nothing to do with water softening?—NBC

ethicalpaul

He likes this one I believe, the Caleffi

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA573100-1-2-FNPT-Demineralizing-Filter-Housing-and-Color-Changing-Cartridge?utm_source=HeatingHelp.com

Hap_Hazzard

What's wrong with this one?
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA573102-10-Color-Changing-Demineralizing-Filter?utm_source=HeatingHelp.com

mattmia2

"relatively low flow rate"? So when you fast fill the system the bulk of the water in the system doesn't get deminieralized?

Hap_Hazzard

Actually, the website isn't very clear about this, but

• https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA573102-10-Color-Changing-Demineralizing-Filter?utm_source=HeatingHelp.com Is just the filter element
  
• https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA573100-1-2-FNPT-Demineralizing-Filter-Housing-and-Color-Changing-Cartridge?utm_source=HeatingHelp.com is the housing and the element
  
• https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-NA573022-Replenishment-Water-Treatment-Filling-Unit?utm_source=HeatingHelp.com is the complete system
  

The complete system includes a backflow preventer, isolation valves, filter housing unit with replaceable resin cartridge and AutoFill™ pre-adjustable fiill valve.