Old house construction methods

ChrisJ

Hi all,

I have a bit of an odd question that I haven't had an easy time finding an answer on.
I know a lot on this forum are knowledable in many areas though so I'm hoping someone has an answer.

My house was built sometime in the 1860s. I don't have an exact date or year, but that's the best I could narrow it down.

There were several additions done over the years as well, though the latest one still has wood lath, plaster and cut nails.

Most of the house is balloon framed over a field stone foundation with no sheathing, just clap board on the exterior. All of the trim was installed and then the wood lath butts up against it and then was plastered. I assumed this was normal for the time, but we recently gutted the downstairs bathroom and it was done completely different.

In that room the wood lath and plaster were done followed by the wood trim on top of it. Interestingly that section is also platform framed.

So it has me wondering. Does this indicate a specific time period, or were they simply different ways of doing it? Or, were the rooms that had the trim installed first simply done wrong?

If it was normal to install trim before the wood lath, what was the reason for this?

JUGHNE

Perhaps, when plastering they need a plaster "ground" board edge.
It may have depended upon the thickness of the window jams.
Old houses I have seen here had window and door jams that stood proud of the 2 x 4 framing about an inch.
They used that inside edge of the jam for the plaster ground.
(I think i am using the correct terminology ?)
The plaster was troweled flush with the jam and then trim nailed over. When gutting these out and reusing the original window and only 1/2" SR then a filler strip was added behind where the new trim covers the SR.
Thickness of that filler shim varied ...... some work involved.

If the trim went on before plaster/ lath then perhaps the jams were flush with the framing. Rare out here, but oldest house might be only 120 years old.

Jamie Hall

Near as I can tell from places around here, @ChrisJ , the change you are describing in the plaster occurred around 1885 to 1890 -- probably earlier in some more "civilized" areas and later in more "rural" areas. Balloon framing, however, lasted in some areas into the early 1900s or even later. It's really quite variable -- if it's heavy timber frame, probably not much later than 1870. Balloon in between -- but the long sticks needed began to get kind of scarce, so platform framing came in. Good thing, too, as balloon framing often isn't firestopped...

ChrisJ

> @Jamie Hall said:
> Near as I can tell from places around here, @ChrisJ , the change you are describing in the plaster occurred around 1885 to 1890 -- probably earlier in some more "civilized" areas and later in more "rural" areas. Balloon framing, however, lasted in some areas into the early 1900s or even later. It's really quite variable -- if it's heavy timber frame, probably not much later than 1870. Balloon in between -- but the long sticks needed began to get kind of scarce, so platform framing came in. Good thing, too, as balloon framing often isn't firestopped...

@Jamie Hall

Why did the change in plaster happen?

Jamie Hall

Haven't a clue. But it did. Cedric's home has both sorts. Both are on accordion lathe -- which is miserable stuff since the keys are anaemic at best -- but the older is incredibly thin and a real bore to work with.

Fred

@ChrisJ , does the wood lathe actually butt against the trim or is there a stop/spacer under the trim? Is the trim actually flush or only slightly raised from the plaster wall? There wasn't a standard or typical practice that trim was installed first and then lathe and plaster but, during that period, there really wasn't any construction standard, period. There is also a good possibility that the original construction did not have plastered walls. It could have been shiplap or some other option and over the years, it could have been removed and the lathe and plaster installed.

ChrisJ

> @Fred said:
> @ChrisJ , does the wood lathe actually butt against the trim or is there a stop/spacer under the trim? Is the trim actually flush or only slightly raised from the plaster wall? There wasn't a standard or typical practice that trim was installed first and then lathe and plaster but, during that period, there really wasn't any construction standard, period. There is also a good possibility that the original construction did not have plastered walls. It could have been shiplap or some other option and over the years, it could have been removed and the lathe and plaster installed.

I do not know if there's a spacer under it but I do not think so. The trim is slightly raised from the plaster, maybe 1/8" or so.

STEVEusaPA

Got any pics?
I've done plenty of historic renovations in my younger days as a carpenter, I've never seen trim on before plaster. Seems like you would always see a crack as they weren't using caulk. The trim wouldn't hide the edge during expansion/contraction.
How thick is the casing on the back edge?

Usually it's like the way @JUGHNE stated. They add plaster stops (what we used to call them but probably not correct), and shim or planed the edges to make them straight and flush for door jambs and casing, plastering to that edge, then add the trim.
What's it look like at the bottom of the wall for the baseboard?

If I had to guess, maybe there was a major problem with the plaster or water damage, etc., and they removed all the plaster to replace, but didn't want to remove all the trim. Or maybe it was something as simple as the plaster guys were going to be tied up way to long so they just put the trim on to keep the job moving.

Do you happen to live in an area with other homes of the same vintage(s) to try to compare?

Fred

@ChrisJ , if the trim is only raised 1/8" , someone along the way either took the easy way out and re-plastered without removing the trim or they had those rooms skim coated to repair the original plaster. There should be 1/2" to 3/4" exposure on the trim.

ChrisJ

> @STEVEusaPA said:
> Got any pics?
> I've done plenty of historic renovations in my younger days as a carpenter, I've never seen trim on before plaster. Seems like you would always see a crack as they weren't using caulk. The trim wouldn't hide the edge during expansion/contraction.
> How thick is the casing on the back edge?
>
> Usually it's like the way @JUGHNE stated. They add plaster stops (what we used to call them but probably not correct), and shim or planed the edges to make them straight and flush for door jambs and casing, plastering to that edge, then add the trim.
> What's it look like at the bottom of the wall for the baseboard?
>
> If I had to guess, maybe there was a major problem with the plaster or water damage, etc., and they removed all the plaster to replace, but didn't want to remove all the trim. Or maybe it was something as simple as the plaster guys were going to be tied up way to long so they just put the trim on to keep the job moving.
>
> Do you happen to live in an area with other homes of the same vintage(s) to try to compare?

What are plaster stops? Do you have any pictures?

There are tons of older homes here but it's a bit odd to go door to door asking people to look at their walls......

Fred

@ChrisJ said: What are plaster stops? Do you have any pictures?
Back in the day, window and door casings were wide enough to allow for the casing itself to act as a "stop" where the plasterer knew he could add the scratch (or brown coat) of plaster to the walls and then the finish coat surface would end up level to the window/door casings. Then the trim would be added with a full exposure and baseboard/crown moldings were also installed on top of the plastered wall. As the years past and drywall became popular, window and door casings got narrower and what is essentially a furring strip is added to the casing where plaster was still desirable. Same thing is done when a renovator decides to skim coat walls or to drywall over plaster. They typically pull the trim, add the furring strip (or "stop") to the casings finish the walls and reinstall the trim.

HVACNUT

> @ChrisJ said:
> There are tons of older homes here but it's a bit odd to go door to door asking people to look at their walls......

Well, Halloween is right around the corner. Get yourself a Handy Manny costume and ask for a special treat. So you can figure out the trick.🛠🎃👻🧟‍♀️

Jamie Hall

Um... well... on the plaster coming up to the door or window casing. That technique certainly was used in some -- in fact, a good many -- houses, at least in the Berkshires of Connecticut and Massachusetts. The centre section of Cedric's home is done that way (circa 1810? Date is uncertain; parts of the frame are around 1770 to 1780) as are a good many of the better farm houses -- where they haven't been "renovated". The door or window trim is 1 inch true thickness, and the lathe ends at the trim (accordion lathe) and is nailed to the frame behind it (heavy timber). Then a thin coat of plaster -- no brown coat -- was applied over that. If finances permitted, wallpaper was applied over the plaster; otherwise it was unfinished though usually very smooth. Being so thin, and since it is on accordion lathe, it is very fragile. There are a few modern plasterers who can cope with it and reproduce it -- but very few.

And yes, there is a definite gap between the door or window trim and the plaster, and often a characteristic very slight lip on the plaster where it wasn't easy to get it just right. Do NOT try to close that gap. Doing so will guarantee that the plaster will fail as the house shifts with temperature and humidity!

JUGHNE

It could have been because of the different trades.
The finish Carpenter may have wanted to get done and down the road. Put all the trim on and the plasters come later.
But, the depth of the jams would have been a factor.
As the jams stuck out into the room the finish guy would have had to return.
Plaster stops or grounds were needed for a level/plumb edge for the plasterer to use for the required thickness. Just like a forming/screeting edge for a concrete sidewalk. IMO

mikeg2015

I need to check my house now. The baseboards are not this way but I think some of the door frame casings are this way. Mainly in the attic and kitchen, informal areas.


Keep in mind that you bathroom would have been an added on feature around 1880-1890 when indoor bathroom and municipal sewers became more common.

ChrisJ

mikeg2015 said:

I need to check my house now. The baseboards are not this way but I think some of the door frame casings are this way. Mainly in the attic and kitchen, informal areas.





Keep in mind that you bathroom would have been an added on feature around 1880-1890 when indoor bathroom and municipal sewers became more common.

my bathroom(s) were done around 1910.
I say that because the downstairs wasn't a bathroom until the 1980s, but it was built at the same time as the upstairs because one is on top of the other. I think the downstairs was a mudroom of sorts.

TAG

Conserving material IMO. My 1810 federal in Philadelphia was all riven lath ...have only seen Accordion once in this area. Easier to stop the lath short of the trim. Think of all the work taking the lath to the jam and plastering it flat for the casing as they did later with more modern plaster and machine lath. More hand split lath ... more hand mixed plaster .. and more cut nails. And that early plaster is not as strong. Just hold the trim on with a few nails and plaster it up. get out quick! My current project is a 1870's stone church ... amazing how much was pegged together. My 1890's house in Chestnut Hill was machine lath with the trim on top .. mostly. It seemed that in important areas they got the final skim under the trim .... not so in utility areas. Many areas got paper immediately anyway.

Plumbing was spare before 1900 -- any bathroom will have been added or modified.

ChrisJ

One of my thoughts were you'd have to get the plaster very flat to get the trim to sit nice and flush against it. Just going to the edge wouldn't be as hard, would it? Certainly doesn't need to be near as nice.

The plaster ceiling in our hallway between the bedrooms has wood lath and I don't know if it's normal but it's bullet proof compared to newer areas. A few of the newer areas have a very fragile powdery plaster. That hallway I burned up a ton of rotozip bits when i put the AC ductwork in. Even after cutting through the plaster and busting the keys off it was very hard to get it off if there lath. On an edge view it didn't look like layers but rather the whole thing looked like smooth grout. No course layer.

Don't know what it is, but it's a lot stronger than the other rooms I did. The other rooms have hair in the plaster while that ceiling did not from what I recall.

That said, it's also one of the ugliest plaster jobs I've seen. Strong but ugly.

Fred

The "hair" in this part of the country was horse hair mixed into the plaster. It acted like a fiber reinforced plaster but over the years, the hair deteriorates and the plaster becomes more fragile.
A lot of the older lathe was hand split. That splitting process raised the fibers in the wood and gave the plaster a great surface to cling to. It bonded and stayed there. I have also cut into some walls where the plaster was rock hard and a different color (more gray) than typical plaster. Almost like it was a mortar mix rather than plaster. Back 100+ years ago, they were resourceful, improvised and used what was available. Not much was consistent.

STEVEusaPA

Also the plaster stops were used as a nailer so you didn’t have to drive your trim nails thru the plaster
Found this too...
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/repairing-historic-flat-plaster-walls-and-ceilings-part-e.shtml

Excerpt...
Ground. Plasterers use metal or wood strips around the edges of doors and windows and at the bottom of walls. These grounds help keep the plaster the same thickness and provide a stopping edge for the plaster. Early plaster work, however, did not use grounds. On early buildings, the woodwork was installed and primed before plastering began. Some time in the early 19th century, a transition occurred, and plasterers applied their wall finish before woodwork was installed.

TAG

Everything was just too uneven in the early days -- as millwork got better and more uniform it was easier to plaster and trim. Before .. the plaster had to take up all the uneven framing under it and make a flat wall.

Ground up shells are also found in both plaster and lime mortar

ChrisJ

I think I may be mistaken, but I'm not entirely sure yet.
The reason I say this is years ago a friend and next door neighbor told me they used to put the trim on first before plastering.

That, and the fact that some areas in my house look like they did that made me assume that's what took place.

Now I'm not sure because I'm looking at the dimensions of things and it's looking more like just a bad skim coat job.

All of the original, or at least, "more original" door openings have a trim piece on the inside of the casing. I don't know if this was a style or if whoever did it just happened to like it. Or, if it's there to hide something.

These are the only pictures I have on hand though they aren't great. Sadly all doors were replaced with cheap hollow doors I assume some time in the 1950s-60s. This specific opening is on a wall that was built with the 2x4's flat so the inside opening of the wall is 2" not 4". The overall wall thickness looks much more like a modern wall from the outside.

ChrisJ

Here's the pictures. They're terrible, but it's all I've got on me.

Jamie Hall

Some of the doors in Cedric's home have trim very like that. Very hard to find it any more -- be careful of it! Those areas were done around 1880. And you've got to love those walls framed with 2x4 flatwise... but your electrician seems to have gotten at least one electric box in there. I'll bet he or she was using some salty language...

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Some of the doors in Cedric's home have trim very like that. Very hard to find it any more -- be careful of it! Those areas were done around 1880. And you've got to love those walls framed with 2x4 flatwise... but your electrician seems to have gotten at least one electric box in there. I'll bet he or she was using some salty language...

I've found I've got quite a few walls with the 2x4's flat.
An interior one directly below this one which was covered up and a closet built around it.

And then it appears two more, one on the first floor and one directly above it. I guess they liked doing interior walls like that to save room.

Those electrical boxes were all done in 1987 when everything was redone. I believe they're low profile from what I recall.

mattmia2

Maybe the "strong plaster" was actually some form of stucco someone used for a repair...

It is a lot more labor to finish up against trim rather than to gauge up to a plaster ground. Maybe there wasn't a nice square machine cut plaster ground available so it was easier to install irregular hand planed trim and plaster up to it before planed lumber was available from sawmills.

Before sheet metal products were readily available it was common to embed a piece of wood in the corner of the plaster to act as a corner bead to protect the corner and gauge the plaster against and those don't seem to crack.

The Steam Whisperer

Plastering up to the trim would make for a more airtight structure, depending on the structural movement.

ChrisJ

Found pictures of the chunk of plaster I cut out for one of the A\C diffusers.

Maybe it does look normal, I don't know. But I do know it was unbelievably strong and hard to cut out.

mattmia2

Looks like brown coat with a skim coat of finish plaster. maybe they made the mix harder, i'm sure that was mixed on site from individual components.