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Does a flush wash waste all the way out?

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
edited September 2019 in Plumbing
So looking through stuff last night I found Niagra's vacuum assist toilet that only uses 0.8 gallons per flush.

This lead me to concerns about it not making it to the sewer. Which lead me to comments about 1.6 not doing that either and that both rely on other water use to make it the rest of the way.

Any thoughts on this?

Do we all have TP etc laying in piping waiting to be slid the rest of the way all of the time?

I can't see slow running water like a shower or sink doing the job. I'd think it needs a burst of water, no?
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
Jean-David Beyer

Comments

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,336
    @ChrisJ . You pose a very good question. I have watched the regulations of the toilet flush capacity go from eight gallons, five gallons, three gallons to the newer one point six. And now it's as little as one point two eight liters per. flush.
    I thought for sure that plumbing codes would have changed to accommodate such a water saving technology but nothing has changed as of yet. ( Larger pipe diameters and more of a pipe pitch requirement etc. ) So far no new code language that I have found for new home installations. Not to mention replacing a old water waster with a new water saver in a older homes drainage system.
    So to answer your question? I would say yes. There is "TP" in many a drainage systems. It depends on how the drainage system was installed.
    When the 1.6 came out and people could not purchase anything with a larger capacity, I had more than a few call backs with angry customers complaining that there new toilet was clogged. But oddly, not many drains.
    This sounds funny but people ended up changing their habits when using the low consumption toilets. The clog issues slowly went away.
    As for the vacuum systems? Never had the use for one.
    Only on cruise ships.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    > @Intplm. said:
    > @ChrisJ . You pose a very good question. I have watched the regulations of the toilet flush capacity go from eight gallons, five gallons, three gallons to the newer one point six. And now it's as little as one point two eight liters per. flush.
    > I thought for sure that plumbing codes would have changed to accommodate such a water saving technology but nothing has changed as of yet. ( Larger pipe diameters and more of a pipe pitch requirement etc. ) So far no new code language that I have found for new home installations. Not to mention replacing a old water waster with a new water saver in a older homes drainage system.
    > So to answer your question? I would say yes. There is "TP" in many a drainage systems. It depends on how the drainage system was installed.
    > When the 1.6 came out and people could not purchase anything with a larger capacity, I had more than a few call backs with angry customers complaining that there new toilet was clogged. But oddly, not many drains.
    > This sounds funny but people ended up changing their habits when using the low consumption toilets. The clog issues slowly went away.
    > As for the vacuum systems? Never had the use for one.
    > Only on cruise ships.

    Thank you for responding @Intplm.

    I do not think habits have changed, I believe the toilets have. I have an older Kohler 1.6 in one bathroom and a newer Gerber 1.6 in the other. The older Kohler constantly clogs while the Gerber has not clogged even once in 8 years.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,025
    Actually I rather doubt that it is TP -- and associated... ah... material which causes the clogging. Which is a real problem. Rather, it is other "things" that get flushed. Reason being that TP etc. does disintegrate rather quickly, and so even if some does hang up, it will usually disintegrate enough to unhang, as it were, within a few flushes.

    However, folks have a tendency to put other material down water closets, on the theory that if it disappears from the bowl when the lever is pushed, all is well. Some of these other items don't disintegrate well, and if they hang up somewhere they can and do cause clogs.

    There is a saying in the waste water industry -- if it can fit down the bowl, it will be put down the bowl sooner or later. You'd be amazed (horrified?) what I've encountered in the years I was supervising treatment plants...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    ChrisJdelta T
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    > @Jamie Hall said:
    > Actually I rather doubt that it is TP -- and associated... ah... material which causes the clogging. Which is a real problem. Rather, it is other "things" that get flushed. Reason being that TP etc. does disintegrate rather quickly, and so even if some does hang up, it will usually disintegrate enough to unhang, as it were, within a few flushes.
    >
    > However, folks have a tendency to put other material down water closets, on the theory that if it disappears from the bowl when the lever is pushed, all is well. Some of these other items don't disintegrate well, and if they hang up somewhere they can and do cause clogs.
    >
    > There is a saying in the waste water industry -- if it can fit down the bowl, it will be put down the bowl sooner or later. You'd be amazed (horrified?) what I've encountered in the years I was supervising treatment plants...


    @Jamie Hall What are your thoughts on the vacuum assist bowl that only uses 0.8 gal?

    The claims are it gets stuff out of the bowl really well. But what about the rest of the system?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 17,025
    Not really happy with them. They do work to clear the bowl, and if you can somehow persuade people that the only thing that goes in there is ah... what you personally contribute :) … plus TP, they're probably OK. And at that, not great wads of TP. Two or three sheets...

    One brand at least has a note which is relevant -- they recommend no more than 20 feet of horizontal run before a vertical stack. Which suggests that the low water volume is or could be a problem.

    Depends a little on just what type of vacuum system, though. Vacuum sewer systems -- where the whole system is sealed and the vacuum provided by a pump at a receiving/pumping station, work well (but are maintenance bears!).
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    > @Jamie Hall said:
    > Not really happy with them. They do work to clear the bowl, and if you can somehow persuade people that the only thing that goes in there is ah... what you personally contribute :) … plus TP, they're probably OK. And at that, not great wads of TP. Two or three sheets...
    >
    > One brand at least has a note which is relevant -- they recommend no more than 20 feet of horizontal run before a vertical stack. Which suggests that the low water volume is or could be a problem.
    >
    > Depends a little on just what type of vacuum system, though. Vacuum sewer systems -- where the whole system is sealed and the vacuum provided by a pump at a receiving/pumping station, work well (but are maintenance bears!).

    Everyone here knows the rules.
    Human waste + TP.

    But I like a bowl that does a good solid rinse. My Gerber 1.6 has a fantastic bowl rinse.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    edited September 2019
    @ChrisJ , I too believe the waste remains in the line between the house and the main sewer line in the street. I have always felt that way, even with the older, higher water volume toilets. Those higher volume toilets may have gotten the waste a little further down the line but, in my opinion, most of the water will run past the solid waste, especially if the vertical stack drops from the second or higher floor and splats against the wall of a cast iron elbow. Maybe not so much with the smoother PVC. Although that water that runs past the newly deposited waste will probably be enough to help move waste from previous flushes further down the line. Overall, I think it really is dependent on other waste water, baths/ kitchen and bathroom sinks to carry solid waste all the way to the street. Showers, probably not so much; not fast enough flow or volume???
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 375
    > @ChrisJ said:
    > > @Jamie Hall said:
    > > Actually I rather doubt that it is TP -- and associated... ah... material which causes the clogging. Which is a real problem. Rather, it is other "things" that get flushed. Reason being that TP etc. does disintegrate rather quickly, and so even if some does hang up, it will usually disintegrate enough to unhang, as it were, within a few flushes.
    > >
    > > However, folks have a tendency to put other material down water closets, on the theory that if it disappears from the bowl when the lever is pushed, all is well. Some of these other items don't disintegrate well, and if they hang up somewhere they can and do cause clogs.
    > >
    > > There is a saying in the waste water industry -- if it can fit down the bowl, it will be put down the bowl sooner or later. You'd be amazed (horrified?) what I've encountered in the years I was supervising treatment plants...
    >
    >
    > @Jamie Hall What are your thoughts on the vacuum assist bowl that only uses 0.8 gal?
    >
    > The claims are it gets stuff out of the bowl really well. But what about the rest of the system?

    Funny story time... The Wife used to flush her... monthly lady products down the toilet despite my repeated complaints. That is until one day the main clogged up and I had the city snake it. Granted it really clogged because of roots in the tree lawn but it was assisted by the the massive wad of products that had formed. After the service guys finished up they came up to the door and told me it was just some 'tissue' and roots, and that there was some left on the treelawn. I looked outside, giggled a bit, went back to the garage for a rake and very clearly announced that her 'lady products' needed to be rake up off the treelawn. She has not flushed anything that doesn't belong since. :wink:
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 767
    I recently installed a septic system for a friend who bought a flood house (UUGHHH!!). Regardless, he lived in that house for a month with a composting toilet. Then we redid the plumbing and got his septic up and running. He tried it out first, immediately following him doing his business, he went out to see if it made it in one flush... Yes it did. So that little home depot 1.6 sent it ALL about 40' horizontally, pitching 1/8"per foot the entire way.
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 860
    edited September 2019
    If your plumbing is PVC and it is supported and pitched correctly, it will work fine with most of the low flush (1.6 or 1.28 gpf) toilets. I don't have a lot of experience with the vacuum assist toilets, and suspect that they might be pushing the envelope for having enough to properly carry waste to the main (or tank).

    One problem I see a decent amount is that if you put too much pitch on a sewer pipe, the liquids tend to 'run away' from the solids. This is most common on kitchen sink lines with a garbage disposal. If they are installed with the correct 2% grade on 2" pipe (1% on 4"), you will see very few problems (assuming they are not trying to put whole chickens down the disposal....). There is a sweet spot to getting the solid waste and the liquid waste to travel together, and even on the 1.28 gpf toilets it works fine.

    Would be interesting to do some science on this...I am curious.

    Cast iron is a different animal, if you have ever seen the inside of a 100 year old cast iron waste line, you know it is chock full of little bumps and places to snag any solid waste going down the pipe. You will definitely need at least a 1.6 gpf toilet to properly carry waste out in one go.
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,281
    Hello, If you can get away with it (because there aren't too many fixtures hooked up) go with 3" rather than 4" pipe. It seems to have better carry with the more concentrated flow path. The only place I use cast iron is in vertical sections for noise reduction. ;)

    Yours, Larry
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    > @Larry Weingarten said:
    > Hello, If you can get away with it (because there aren't too many fixtures hooked up) go with 3" rather than 4" pipe. It seems to have better carry with the more concentrated flow path. The only place I use cast iron is in vertical sections for noise reduction. ;)
    >
    > Yours, Larry

    Wouldn't running 3"PVC and insulating it work even better for noise?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,281
    Hi, That's been tried and it doesn't work as well as the iron pipe, probably something to do with the much greater mass of the iron pipe vs plastic. :o

    Yours, Larry
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,336
    edited September 2019
    @ChrisJ The habit changes I have suggested to customers was to change there TP. I have suggested different brands of TP to use when they had problems with the newly installed 1.6's.
    This "habit" change helped with most that had the clog problems.
    I also agree that some toilets flush much better than others with this "new" low water consumption technology.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,832
    Intplm. said:

    I also agree that some toilets flush much better than others with this "new" low water consumption technology.

    That's correct- some toilets flush much better than others. Here is a video of a standardized testing protocol- note that the material being flushed is not "the real thing":

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    Steamhead said:

    Intplm. said:

    I also agree that some toilets flush much better than others with this "new" low water consumption technology.

    That's correct- some toilets flush much better than others. Here is a video of a standardized testing protocol- note that the material being flushed is not "the real thing":

    From what I saw the Gerber Viper apparently ranks much lower than it used to compared to newer toilets.
    I'm kind of surprised honestly...........

    I was looking at a Zurn 1.6 but there's a lot of complaints about poor bowl rinse. Probably going for a Kohler.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,927
    I have been thru all the changes starting with 3.5GPF.
    Some early ones were really bad with a very small water "target".
    Now in my house I have 3 different American Standards.
    Oldest 1.6 burps air when flushing, next 1.6 does not.
    The newest 1.28 just does one "swallow" and it is gone.

    I have often wondered about lack of water flow even in a 3" pipe.
    But no problems after 10+ years on the first 1.6.

    Our habit developed by all the kids is to flush before and after the "paper work". ;) So for serious matters it gets a double flush.

    The good thing about the low flushers is that the bowl will hold more water than the tank. So you have to really try to overflow the bowl.

    Some one had an interesting U tube on removing cast iron and showing the amount of dental floss hung up inside acting like a fishing net for what ever comes along.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,927
    Are there any videos of flushes like that with glass piping showing the flow?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,832
    ChrisJ said:

    From what I saw the Gerber Viper apparently ranks much lower than it used to compared to newer toilets.
    I'm kind of surprised honestly...........

    We have one in our shop, and despite our best efforts have never been able to stop it up.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,966
    > @Steamhead said:
    > (Quote)
    > We have one in our shop, and despite our best efforts have never been able to stop it up.

    I think the ratings I've seen were for the newer 1.28 Viper.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,336
    I have been installing the newest version of Kohler toilets. All there models seem to be performing with little or no complaints so far.
    ChrisJ
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,336
    I spoke with a rep from one company who said that they substitute fecal with Miso. for testing product performance.

    I have also seen a video of a large quantity of golf balls flushed in a stainless steel institutional type toilet.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,918
    I've never been impressed by flushing golf balls or marbles, or stuff like that. If they want to sell me a toilet, flush a half roll of TP, or a washcloth, or a small hand towel. That's a toilet I'd like to have in my house!
    Intplm.Canucker