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Running gas line to new shed

dbanimaldbanimal Posts: 5Member
Hello everyone! I just built a 1500 s.f. shed and want to run a gas line to it for heating. I'm going to be running an 80,000 BTU Mr. Heater and that is all. I will be feeding it from the house which is about 180 feet away and I would like to use MDPE for burial between the house and shed. I live in MN if that helps any?! What size tubing would be required to accomplish this task or is it the bigger the better? I was thinking probably 1". What do you think?

Thanks in advance!

Comments

  • dbanimaldbanimal Posts: 5Member
    Forgot to mention, it will be natural gas.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,330Member
    What do I think? I think you should have a Pro do it. Including a heat loss calculation (100K BTU?), make sure you're existing gas meter can handle the load. Pull necessary permits. Perform the work to code. Things of that nature.
  • dbanimaldbanimal Posts: 5Member
    OK, so here's the deal, I have already dug a trench for my electric and I have already spoken with the local inspector who has given me his blessing to bury the gas line in the same trench. I will be filling in said trench within a week so I need to know what size MDPE (ASTM D2513) line to install. I have already acquired the appropriate permits and will most likely hire someone to make the connection to my meter but for the time being I need to know what size to put in the ground - that's all!
    As I stated before, distance is about 180 feet and I'll be supplying natural gas to an 80,000 BTU Mr. Heater.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    dbanimal said:

    OK, so here's the deal, I have already dug a trench for my electric and I have already spoken with the local inspector who has given me his blessing to bury the gas line in the same trench. I will be filling in said trench within a week so I need to know what size MDPE (ASTM D2513) line to install. I have already acquired the appropriate permits and will most likely hire someone to make the connection to my meter but for the time being I need to know what size to put in the ground - that's all!
    As I stated before, distance is about 180 feet and I'll be supplying natural gas to an 80,000 BTU Mr. Heater.

    OK
    So how many appliances are on the meter already?
    How many feet and size of piping?

    You have to look at the WHOLE picture not just the run to the shed!

    How did you come up with 80K for such a small load?
  • dbanimaldbanimal Posts: 5Member
    pecmsg said:


    OK
    So how many appliances are on the meter already?

    I have lines going to my furnace, hot water heater, fireplace (rarely used) and a 50,000 BTU rated Mr. Heater in the garage.
    pecmsg said:


    How many feet and size of piping?

    I will have to measure the total length of piping combined and I believe it's 3/4" CSST but I will check all this tonight.

    pecmsg said:


    How did you come up with 80K for such a small load?

    I guess I don't understand what you mean by this, the heater has a maximum output of 80K BTU?!

    Ships as natural gas. Includes Natural Gas to Propane Conversion Kit
    Spark ignition features self-diagnostic control module
    4" flue size
    CSA certified
    Includes angle brackets (2) for ceiling mount
    Heats up to 2500 sq. ft. (assumes R13 - 4" wall insulation and R38 - 12" ceiling insulation). Heats up to 2000 sq. ft. with little to no insulation.
    1/2" gas connection
    Dept. of Energy (DOE) Registered
  • Tim PotterTim Potter Posts: 247Member
    --> How did you come up with 80K for such a small load <--

    You wouldn't buy a 26' box truck to drop the kids off at school or go to the grocery store. What he is saying is do a heat loss & buy a furnace that matches the heat loss. buying the correct size furnace is the correct way to go. If its over-sized, it will short cycle greatly, leading to increased wear & tear on the unit along with big temp swings. It definitely wont make you happy.

    https://www.slantfin.com/slantfin-heat-loss-calculator/

    for example I have a 80,000 btu unit in my 2000 sq ft house in the high mountains, does my heat & hot water & is still way over-sized even on the coldest morning (-30* F).

    The #1 suggestion here at HH is do a heat-loss.
    Hope this helps you out.

    Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Lenexa, KS
  • dbanimaldbanimal Posts: 5Member

    -->
    The #1 suggestion here at HH is do a heat-loss.
    Hope this helps you out.

    Tim

    Thanks for the info!
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    dbanimal said:

    pecmsg said:


    OK
    So how many appliances are on the meter already?

    I have lines going to my furnace, hot water heater, fireplace (rarely used) and a 50,000 BTU rated Mr. Heater in the garage.
    pecmsg said:


    How many feet and size of piping?

    I will have to measure the total length of piping combined and I believe it's 3/4" CSST but I will check all this tonight.

    pecmsg said:


    How did you come up with 80K for such a small load?

    I guess I don't understand what you mean by this, the heater has a maximum output of 80K BTU?!

    Ships as natural gas. Includes Natural Gas to Propane Conversion Kit
    Spark ignition features self-diagnostic control module
    4" flue size
    CSA certified
    Includes angle brackets (2) for ceiling mount
    Heats up to 2500 sq. ft. (assumes R13 - 4" wall insulation and R38 - 12" ceiling insulation). Heats up to 2000 sq. ft. with little to no insulation.
    1/2" gas connection
    Dept. of Energy (DOE) Registered
    You need to size the gas line as if ALL appliances ore operating! You also need to find out if the meter can handle the extra flow now needed!

    Get a heating contractor in to inspect and advise!
  • GroundUpGroundUp Posts: 563Member
    edited August 31
    80k is far too large for a 1500 sq ft garage unless one wall is missing. I am also in MN, and built a 1600 sq ft garage 10'H last fall, the heat loss is 17,000 at -20 outside and 70 inside. I also heat a 2400 sq ft shop with 15ft walls and 300 sq ft of overhead door with a heat loss of 53,000 in the same temps.

    As for the gas, can you provide a picture of your meter and figure out the total input load of the furnace, WH, UH, and fireplace combined? That'll allow us to see what's available for use. What city are you in?
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,330Member
    edited August 30
    The inspector gave you the blessing to bury the gas line in the same trench as the electric. That's awesome. What he didn't tell you was, EVERYTHING ELSE.
    If you pulled a permit, you'll find that it's not only the shed that's included in the inspection. You wont pass on the back end if it's not done right in the planning stage. And I'm not 100 percent sure but I believe the piping needs to be inspected before you backfill. However, I feel there is no inspector or permit.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Posts: 64Member
    If you know enough to do this yourself the answers to these questions will be obvious.

    If you have doors that will be open or large doors that will be opening a lot or you will only be heating it intermittently from say 10 degrees to a comfortable working temp, you will need to account for this and the standard calculators don't account for this unless you understand how the calculation works and add appropriate adjustments.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Posts: 64Member
    The rules for burying electric and gas piping are also quite different...
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    edited August 31
    At the risk getting a bunch of people mad at me, one thing I have noticed about this forum is that there is a lot of animosity towards homeowners and especially homeowners doing their own work. He asked a simple question. Assuming the meter is large enough or will be upgraded to handle the demand and the piping in house is, or will be sized up as well, it should be easy to calculate the size needed from the house to barn given a known length and demand. Is his furnace over sized? Probably, so what. He already stated permits have been pulled and the AHJ is in the know. If you don't want to help fine but being condescending to him isn't helpful. If you do want to help give him the information asked for with the disclosure that the meter and indoor gaslines should be handled by a professional and that he should do a heat loss on the barn to right size the heater. And that it would save on costs too.

    He is simply wanting to find out how big of a pipe he needs so he can bury it at the same time as the other utilities again saving costs. Also remember MN is pretty liberal when it comes to permits and homeowners doing their own work so what might not fly in cali or jersey might not be an issue there.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    > @JakeCK said:
    > At the risk getting a bunch of people mad at me, one thing I have noticed about this forum is that there is a lot of animosity towards homeowners and especially homeowners doing their own work. He asked a simple question. Assuming the meter is large enough or will be upgraded to handle the demand and the piping in house is, or will be sized up as well, it should be easy to calculate the size needed from the house to barn given a known length and demand. Is his furnace over sized? Probably, so what. He already stated permits have been pulled and the AHJ is in the know. If you don't want to help fine but being condescending to him isn't helpful. If you do want to help give him the information asked for with the disclosure that the meter and indoor gaslines should be handled by a professional and that he should do a heat loss on the barn to right size the heater. And that it would save on costs too.
    >
    > He is simply wanting to find out how big of a pipe he needs so he can bury it at the same time as the other utilities again saving costs. Also remember MN is pretty liberal when it comes to permits and homeowners doing their own work so what might not fly in cali or jersey might not be an issue there.

    Not being there makes it a little difficult doesn’t it?
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    Does that justify getting s$&#ty with or talking down to the homeowner?

    But to recap, he said the run is going to be 180ft and he needs to supply enough gas for a 80k btuh heater. Can the size of the pipe needed be calculated from this, yes or no?
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Posts: 64Member
    No. Depends on where it is tapped off and how that was sized. In order to do even the sizing you have to learn enough that the answer to the size question is obvious to you. You could probably pick some huge size and be ok, but it needs to be sized by whoever is doing the pressure calculations, there is more than one way to tap off and there may be tradeoffs in cost with different options. They may also have higher pressure service available which is another way to do it. I wasn't trying to be condescending, i was saying that even this step isn't easy and requires a fair bit of knowledge of the fuel gas code to come up with a solution. The typical 6.5" wc residential service is so low a pressure you have to think of the piping more as ductwork carrying something more like air moved by an air handler than water or compressed air in a pipe. It take a large diameter pipe to move a significant volume of gas with pressure loss that is acceptable to the design of the appliance.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,330Member
    edited August 31
    From the wording and lack of detail, its quite obvious the OP is doing this on the sly. He says he will "most likely hire someone to make the connection to my meter". That's quite a tell, and things go BOOM with gas and DIY. Nobody here wants that. That "someone" should be able to provide all the info he needs for a proper installation.
    Sometimes trying to get complete information from a poster is like pulling teeth. The more vague and in a rush they are, the more we know things are hokey.
    And if I wasn't always a wiseass, I'd probably never talk. My friend Carol doesn't call me Henny for nothing. Take my post, please.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    With the little information provider?
    180’ of undergrad pipi
    3 appliances on 3/4”
    No meter #’s
    No length from meter to beginning of the 180’ run.

    You answer the question accurately!
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    > @JakeCK said:
    > Does that justify getting s$&#ty with or talking down to the homeowner?
    >
    > But to recap, he said the run is going to be 180ft and he needs to supply enough gas for a 80k btuh heater. Can the size of the pipe needed be calculated from this, yes or no?

    I’m not getting |#£try with the OP
    trying to get him / her to get someone there that knows what there doing so innocent people don’t get hurt!
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    edited August 31
    So now homeowners are liers? I say this because a large chunk of homeowners couldn't tell you the difference between a btu and a therm. Which kind of suggests your average homeowner will by default have a lack of details. But that doesn't make them liers. Now I'm not suggesting a botched diy job cant cause an explosion but I hear about many more NG explosions caused by thieves/criminals, shoddy contractors, and general lack of care of equipment then I ever hear about a diy job going wrong. How many houses were destroyed last sept. by Columbia Gas' trained and knowledgeable pros? 60+?
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    > @JakeCK said:
    > So now homeowners are liers? I say this because a large chunk of homeowners couldn't tell you the difference between a btu and a therm. Which kind of suggests your average homeowner will by default have a lack of details. But that doesn't make them liers. Now I'm not suggesting a botched diy job cant cause an explosion but I hear about many more NG explosions caused by thieves/criminals, shoddy contractors, and general lack of care of equipment then I ever hear about a diy job going wrong. How many houses were destroyed last sept. by Columbia Gas' trained and knowlegible pros? 60+?

    So when did I say the OP was lying?

    Can you answer there question, do it!

    Sorry but I’ve forgotten the tables on how man BTU’s per ‘ of pipe. Haven’t needed it in years but it is easily accessible on the net.

    Just from the info provided I’m confident the op WILL have issues!
  • psb75psb75 Posts: 97Member
    You could just say, "oversize the pipe, if in doubt." And move on.
    There is much detail that the OP did not include, and needs to consider.
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    edited August 31
    > @pecmsg said:
    > > @JakeCK said:
    > > So now homeowners are liers? I say this because a large chunk of homeowners couldn't tell you the difference between a btu and a therm. Which kind of suggests your average homeowner will by default have a lack of details. But that doesn't make them liers. Now I'm not suggesting a botched diy job cant cause an explosion but I hear about many more NG explosions caused by thieves/criminals, shoddy contractors, and general lack of care of equipment then I ever hear about a diy job going wrong. How many houses were destroyed last sept. by Columbia Gas' trained and knowlegible pros? 60+?
    >
    > So when did I say the OP was lying?
    >
    > Can you answer there question, do it!
    >
    > Sorry but I’ve forgotten the tables on how man BTU’s per ‘ of pipe. Haven’t needed it in years but it is easily accessible on the net.
    >
    > Just from the info provided I’m confident the op WILL have issues!

    I'm sorry, I wasn't actually talking to you. If you look at the time stamp I posted that at exactly the same time you posted.
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    200ft of 1" pipe can deliver ~135 cubic feet. That works out to 135000 btu's. Now of course that doesn't consider what's going on in his house.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,330Member
    > @JakeCK said:
    > 200ft of 1" pipe can deliver ~135 cubic feet. That works out to 135000 btu's. Now of course that doesn't consider what's going on in his house.

    Exactly. That's what we've been TRYING to say. There are waaay too many variables to consider other than, "what size pipe do I need?"
    I think common sense dictates that any pro here would be wise not to touch this without knowing ALL the details.
    A poster can ask, "I have a boiler. What size piping do I need for my house?" We need information. Simple as that. And the boiler question is far less dangerous than the gas line question. I wonder what the OP's pressure test will show. "Oh, I need a pressure test?"
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    and it’s being feed with 3/4” with furnace, hot water heater, fireplace
    JakeCK said:

    200ft of 1" pipe can deliver ~135 cubic feet. That works out to 135000 btu's. Now of course that doesn't consider what's going on in his house.

    At what inlet pressure and how much outlet after 180 ‘?
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    Let me ask this another way. Would it make any difference if he ran 1" or 2" that 180ft if the pipe in his house isn't up for the job?
  • John RuhnkeJohn Ruhnke Posts: 797Member
    edited August 31
    Here is my 2 cents...…..

    Here is a quote I found on the internet.

    "Natural gas in the natural gas service line pressure in the gas main in the street will be found at pressures from 60 psi down to as low as 0.25 psi or about 7 inches of water column. Natural gas pressure at the gas meter : Depending on the application gas meters may operate at 7" w.c., 0.5 to 2.0 psig, or at pressures over 2.0 psig."

    Where I live we have an area with old mains that has a lot of problem with the 7" wc. The gas company was claiming it could deliver 7" of wc at the meter but I think at times it was even less than they were claiming. I had a condensing hot water heater in that area and it wouldn't fire right. We oversized the pipe knowing the area had problems. We couldn't get the min wc the manufacture was looking for at the equipment. The old conventional water heater required less and worked fine.

    In the same town we have mains that are newer delivering much higher pressure. Enough that we need to stick in a pressure reducer to get the main pressure down to two pounds. On some projects we run two pounds through the building.

    Sizing the pipe to bring into a building is impossible without first consulting the local gas company about available pressure in the area. Every town is different. Even in one town different areas can have a wide range of pressure.
    John Ruhnke
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    JakeCK said:

    Let me ask this another way. Would it make any difference if he ran 1" or 2" that 180ft if the pipe in his house isn't up for the job?

    If the supply piping cannot handle the volume of all appliances operating + this new one it doesn’t mater what size pipe he Runs out there!
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    > @pecmsg said:
    > and it’s being feed with 3/4” with furnace, hot water heater, fireplace(Quote)
    > At what inlet pressure and how much outlet after 180 ‘?

    He obviously can't feed it with 3/4.
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    > @pecmsg said:
    > (Quote)
    > If the supply piping cannot handle the volume of all appliances operating + this new one it doesn’t mater what size pipe he Runs out there!

    Exactly. Thats my point. Or rather one of them. My biggest grip is how condescending some here can be toward to novices. My second point is that hes only asking about getting pipe in the ground that will work at a later date now so he doesn't have to dig a second time later. Regardless of what he does today between the house and barn he's going to have to make serious changes in the house to accommodate it. And thats where he really is going to need an expert.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Posts: 64Member
    JakeCK said:

    > @pecmsg said:

    > and it’s being feed with 3/4” with furnace, hot water heater, fireplace(Quote)

    > At what inlet pressure and how much outlet after 180 ‘?



    He obviously can't feed it with 3/4.

    But he might be able to feed it with 3/4 if he has a 2 psig service and local regulators...
  • John RuhnkeJohn Ruhnke Posts: 797Member
    Is the underground pipe connecting to the existing gas meter? is the underground pipe connecting to the house? If connecting to the house than most likely the main needs to be measured through the house and to the meter. Often you cant tie into the existing piping because in the house that will be too small. If you are piping directly to the houses existing meter than the main from the street to the meter has to be resized. That might be to small.

    So somebody has to have a whole lot of knowledge before dropping a pipe into this trench. Oh and local codes will dictate how that pipe gets installed in relation to the electric pipe already there.

    So I don't want anybody here giving advice like "Just drop a 1" pipe in that trench".

    I am a pro with decades of experience and taken trade seminars all over the continent. I studied the codes backwards and forwards. I talked with the local gas company to get an idea what pressure the main can deliver. And still after all of that. After oversizing a pipe. That condensing hot water heater would not work.

    The point is. A homeowner may look at this situation and think everything is easy. He doesn't have the depth of knowledge to realize the problems or consequences. If I had trouble sizing gas pipe with all my training, education and knowledge how can a homeowner expect to do better?
    John Ruhnke
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    And yet still at the end of the day if the 1" pipe won't work its not because it's 1" but because the pipes feeding it aren't up to the job.

    Look, I've now been up 28hrs and worked a 12hr somewhere in there. I really don't feel like continuing this. Bottom line is the homeowner is going to do what he wants to do. If he has in fact pulled a permit, and has the ahj looking over his shoulder, and as long as he doesn't connect it to the meter/exsisting lines himself, he shouldn't be risking anyones life. Only his money.

    Personally would I attempt something like this? Not a chance. There is a reason I still only have one 15amp circuit and no heat in my detached 2 car garage.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,330Member
    edited August 31
    To put it simply, and trying my hardest not to be, well, condescending isn't right. Painfully honest might be a better description.
    The OP is putting the cart before the horse. Cannot see the forest for the trees. Etc.

    An action without objective is one with only a tenuous connection to reality.
    - No idea

    Also take note the OP is MIA, and its not because he was refused help. Help would come in abundance as these guys are the best there is on the best heating forum there is. But there's no such thing as too much information to get the help you want. It's pretty much necessary.
  • JakeCKJakeCK Posts: 88Member
    How is putting in future infrastructure when an opportunity presents its self putting the cart before the horse? I know this isn't exactly compareable but when I remodeled my kitchen I ran 14-3 to the main ceiling light so in the future if I want to control a ceiling fan independently from the light it will be easy. Also I ran 14-2 to a location where I might replace a window with a backdoor so I could have a porch light. They're not hot at the moment but its there if I need it and I won't have to cut new holes in my walls. Same deal with cat.6 years ago. I actually did end up using one of those for a new 802.11ac AP. Is that putting the cart before the horse?
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 837Member
    Because he doesn’t have all his ducks in a row.

    If he’s happy with 1” I couldn’t care. He came here we advised there’s more to look at !
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