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National Grid

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347
347 Member Posts: 143
Hello To all,
To those of you who do gas work on Long Island. It seems that National Grid has put a hold on all new gas installations (to my understanding). Which means no new pool heaters, generators, boilers or gas meter upgrades.
What are most of you doing about it? I have a generator that I was going to start this week but it needs a meter upgrade for the new load. So I postponed the job until the gas restrictions are lifted. The homeowner was not very happy about that.
Do you think the work should be done and keep the under sized meter or not? I choose not to do the work because of the undersized meter.
The existing meter is 250CFM, new generator is 299,000 and the existing load (boiler, w/h, oven, dryer) is about 355,000 BTU's.
Thanks for the input.
Michael

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  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,844
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    Don't know how long Island works. Here in MA we have to get a "letter of availability" from the gas co to ad any substantial load so we couldnt do it with an undersized meter.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,661
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    Perhaps a more general question... since the National Grid hold has to do with the unavailability of much more gas on the Isle of Long (pipeline capacity) and since when you want the generator to run so, most likely, does everyone else and gas will be restricted, do you really want a natural gas fired generator????
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,967
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    347 said:

    Hello To all,
    To those of you who do gas work on Long Island. It seems that National Grid has put a hold on all new gas installations (to my understanding). Which means no new pool heaters, generators, boilers or gas meter upgrades.
    What are most of you doing about it? I have a generator that I was going to start this week but it needs a meter upgrade for the new load. So I postponed the job until the gas restrictions are lifted. The homeowner was not very happy about that.
    Do you think the work should be done and keep the under sized meter or not? I choose not to do the work because of the undersized meter.
    The existing meter is 250CFM, new generator is 299,000 and the existing load (boiler, w/h, oven, dryer) is about 355,000 BTU's.
    Thanks for the input.
    Michael

    and here comes another major rate increase!
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,844
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    West Hartford Ct has really low gas pressure. Inspectors will allow a propane generator even if the building has natural gas service.

    In general most locations will not allow propane and natural without special permission, maybe this is an option for long island

    Face it all the gas utilities have overextended their pipeline capacity
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I would definatly look into the propane option for the generator. Not sure (as @EBEBRATT-Ed said) if LP is allowed. But I am a proponent of on-site fuel supply for a backup. Then no matter the gas pressure your generator will still run.

    What will your predicted generator load be? 299,000 is about a 17Kw generator if my mind is working. Do you have a large A/C load to cover?
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,661
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    Definitely agree with @Solid_Fuel_Man . And I would add that if LP isn't an option, may I mention that there are both gasoline and diesel generators, too? Now I realise that being a country boy, the idea of those is more appealing than it might be in a suburb or a city -- but I can say that the two gasoline fired generators which I care for start and run just fine. Of course, I do maintain them... and with the tractors and trucks I have enough gasoline around to last for quite some time... but... having one's own on-site fuel for backup when things get squirrely has its points.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited June 2019
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    Rules have changed. You need operator qualify certification from DOT to work on meter bars and gas meter piping. You cannot operate gas service valve or any other valve on meter piping. In nyc fines are starting from 37K if I’m not mistaken. You must provide load letter to Nat grid prior starting job and get approval. They will close gas service for you and open only after you get gas authorization from DOB. in case of generator you also need ok from electrical division of dob. It means you need plumbing and electrical permits. I installed few microcogen systems on Long Island. Went through all of it. I would recommend to substitute boiler/water heater with cogen system with island mode option. You would reduce gas and electric loads.
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited June 2019
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    Seems if overdraw the flow from meter , you'll lose some pressure in your lines downstream of meter . Question is how much, and will your nat-gas equipment be able to tolerate the pressure reduction.

    I Don't have gas but I hear gas meters have an safty orfice restrictor to limit gas flow in case of a pipe break. I've heard sometimes all a meter upgrade involves is changing out that orfice for one with a larger hole, if meter is basically large enough.

    Might ask here, these experienced generator techs are a GREAT source of info on nat gas. https://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1

    ------------------------------------------------

    Bit of work but for co-generation an old water cooled marine gen is a cheap solution, tied to your heating system.

    Internal combustion engine Gens typically only have a MAX efficiency of ~ 17% ( and that's at full load). so there is a VERY VERY GREAT amount of heat available from waste heat for home heating from a ~ 15kw gen

    ----------------------------------------------

    One noval thought is to run gen on nat gas with a fixed ratio supplement of propane. Would think you'ld have to set up pressure regulators on both fuel lines so that vapor supply to the engine demand reg was at same pressure, Possible use orifices to try to maintain FIXED ratio of nat gas to propane across the board from no-flow to full gen load .

    Would have to re-adjust engine vapor carb air fuel ratio. I've never tried it but sounds do-able.......possibly. Seems hardest part would be to maintain propane/nat-gas mass ratio. Never tried it , just an idea. At work ( fuel cell R&D) we had a fancy system to mix gases to simulate manufactured coal gas
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
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    Not what I had in mind , but seems it's not hard to SWITCH BETWEEN nat gas and propane as supply of nat gas runs out.

    Around post 17 of
    https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187382#post1580556
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,548
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