Bell & Gossett Help

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Can someone help me with this pump ID? It's the larger one on top in the picture below. It's not a series 100 pump. It circulates water through 3/8" tubing in the ceiling plaster; maybe 1500 square feet.

Big Ed_4

We call it a large B&G in the trade ... What is the problem ? Can we help you

Tinman

I call it an HV.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I thought so too, but I ordered this HV pump, but it's a Series 100.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-102210-1-6-HP-HV-NFI-Circulator-Pump-5601000-p

The motor is the size of the lower circulator in the picture.

The problem is that it's leaking through a hole under the coupling assembly.

Mike_Sheppard

Seal is leaking. That hole is there to drain water from leaking seal. Need to replace bearing assembly. Re-use impeller. New assembly comes with valute gasket and oil. Part number 189163.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

That's a great help, Mike. I'd like to get a new impeller with that. Are there many to choose from?

hot_rod

What about a nice ECM circ upgrade? Like a B&G Vario if they like the brand.

delta T

In my experience, by the time you pay for a new bearing assembly, impeller, and the like, plus the time and labor to install it, you will be money ahead with a new ECM.

Tinman

Or a simple wet rotor pump? An NRF-33 would be fairly close.

ScottSecor

Not certain, but it looks like 1" or 1-1/4" pipe in and out of this HV pump. I agree with others, might be better off replacing pump with new. I'm guessing about ten or fifteen gpm at ten or eleven feet of head. I'd be careful not to choose a pump with less head. We often see HV pumps on systems with monoflow tees, due to the added restriction.

Tinman

HV pumps are relatively low head (15’ tops) with high flow.

DanHolohan

B&G made a pump called 1-1/2. It's performance curve is on page 38 of their old manual: https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/Bell-and-Gossett-Handbook.pdf

hot_rod

Work it backwards, how many btus is it moving, the size of the boiler or how much energy could be moved thru 1500' of 3/8 tube? I doubt you are moving 20 gpm, or need to. Follow the curve down to maybe 4-6 gpm. Plenty of small wet rotors will do the jobbed use a lot less energy, be maintenance-free also.

ScottSecor

Sorry for the bad information, I somehow missed the 3/8" tubing in the ceiling part....

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Yeah, so the GPM is easy. Figuring the pressure drop is more difficult because I don't know how long the longest loop is.

If I go to my B&G System Syzer, scale No. 2:
- 3/8" tubing
- shows 1.7 feet of head at .4 GPM per 100 feet of tubing

Let's say they ran 250' of 3/8" tubing. That gives me 4.25' of head at let's say 6 gpm. So, like Hot Rod says, a small wet rotor pump will do the trick.

What gives me pause is why that smart, dead man who probably watched every nickel and dime he spent would choose such a large circulator.

DanHolohan

Probably looking for high head to push it all through the small pipe. B&G came out with ode to deal with multiple Monoflo fittings and their cumulative pressure drop.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

DanHolohan said:

Probably looking for high head to push it all through the small pipe. B&G came out with ode to deal with multiple Monoflo fittings and their cumulative pressure drop.

So do I trust my numbers or his pump?

ScottSecor

I trust the dead men's selection of pumps. I would want a pump that is capable of at least 12' head, you can always throttle the outlet if required. I may have missed it (again) but there could be a bunch of mono-flow tees that add up to quite a bit of head.

DanHolohan

I’m with Scott.

hot_rod

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

DanHolohan said:

Probably looking for high head to push it all through the small pipe. B&G came out with ode to deal with multiple Monoflo fittings and their cumulative pressure drop.

So do I trust my numbers or his pump?

I like your number, but, a big but, it assumes 250' or less loops. Could be 500' loops is why they chose that circulator, or booster
Can you see any manifolds to determine the number of loops?

An accurate gauge across the pump could answer the unknown, if you want to go that far.

Gilmorrie

A Taco 0012 has the same hydraulic performance as B&G HV. That would be a direct replacement, assuming that the HV was performing satisfactorily. A B&G HV is a heavy, rugged, costly, 3-piece pump that has been around for at least 70 years, but a modern wet-rotor pump such as the Taco 0012 would be a better choice for replacement, I think. The HV is oil lubricated, and has multiple moving parts - the Taco has one moving part, the cartridge, which is easily replaced, and is water lubricated.

Tinman

Dead men oversized everything. It was a way of life. See what I did there?

hot_rod

Is the tube 3/8 OD or ID? Typical 3/8" soft copper refrigeration tube is 3/8 OD, 1/4" ID. That would make a big pressure drop difference.
Closer to the old SolaRoll tube 200" loops and it still needed high head circ.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

That's a good questions. I did repairs on the tubing a few years back when the owner forgot to tell the electrician about the tubing in the plaster when he was adding lighting cans in the ceiling. My notes don't say the size and I forgot.
I should presume 3/8" refrigeration.

Tinman

If it’s copper radiant though its most likely 3/8” ID, right? That’s all I’ve seen in Chicagoland.

Tinman

I had some copper couplings in my garage that I used exclusively for old radiant ceilings and floor repairs. The ID of the coupling is exactly 1/2”. That’s all ever used here.

The last near boiler repipe I did for this type of job was 3 levels, 2400 sf total. 3 zones and I used 007s on each zone. This was 6 years ago. House heats great.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I'm tending towards a Grundfos 15-58 on high speed.

Mike_Sheppard

I tend to stick with B&G around where I’m at. The main reason being all of the bearing assemblies / couplings / motors / impellers are readily available at several different vendors. Every time I need a TACO it’s hit or miss, usually not in stock anywhere.

Joe Mattiello

Hi Mike
Thanks for expressing your concern when it comes to availability of products, and replacement parts. Taco understands the importance of having product on the shelf at Reps, and wholesalers locations.
I'm not sure where you're located, but please reach out to me so I can look into it, and make sure you find what your looking for in the future.
I'm available anytime at 401-261-4890.
joemat@tacocomfort.com

Mike_Sheppard

Hi @Joe Mattiello

I am in Northern VA. I service from Richmond, VA to Baltimore, MD, and sometimes beyond. Lots of Washington DC.

Commercial service. Residential and commercial sized pumps. I have several go-to vendors for larger B&G pumps, seals, impellers, bearing assemblies, and motors. Haven't had the best of luck finding larger Taco pumps and components in stock.

If you could point me in the right direction that would be awesome.

Joe Mattiello

Hi Mike
I'm the North East, commercial Regional Manager that works closely with Taco MFG rep, NH Yates, 117c Church Lane, Cockeysville, MD 21030, 410-667-6300
Matt Cornelius, is the Commercial manager, and works closely with Jim Yates. Collectively they have over 60 years experience with commercial systems, and products. they have been a Taco rep for most, if not all of those years. I would reach out to them with any product needs, and I'm confident they will have it in stock, or will get it within a reasonable time. I provided my contact information too, so I encourage you to call me if you need something ASAP. Thanks again for allowing me the opportunity to serve you.

Mike_Sheppard

Thank you @Joe Mattiello

I believe I have dealt with NY Yates in the past. They're pretty far north compared to the area I cover most often.

I really appreciate it and will definitely give them a call! Thanks again.

Joe Mattiello

Hi Mike
Just following up. Let me know if there is anything you need