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Help Figuring our EDR for unusual 1864 radiator/convector

vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
Good Afternoon Everyone!
I recently became a steward of a grand 1874 house. And of course the first step is bringing the steam system up to my standards. It actually works reasonably well - no hammer and most radiators heat up pretty quickly from half-million BTU WM 78. But also set at 10psi and I'm sure is using way more oil than necessary.

But my first step is figuring out the radiation. There's a number of more common column and slenderized rads, but there's also quite a few of what I presume to be the original radiators from when the house was built. I have never seen anything like that(and couldn't find them in Dan's book) Very interesting design and the only thing I could make out on them is the patent date of 1864. Here is one, I hope someone can help me at least ballpark their EDR rating.

Comments

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 10,456Member
    It will take some measuring and some math -- but keep in mind that one can come up with a pretty good approximation of EDR by regarding it as the same as the actual surface area.

    So... for the pipes -- vertical tubes and headers -- just figure the surface area normally (circumference of the tube times length -- converted to square feet, of course). Then the little fin like things are added on: figure the area of each fin (outside diameter squared times .785 - inside diameter -- the diameter of the tube -- squared times .785. Double that and you have the area of a fin. count the fins (easiest to count the fins per inch and multiply by length) (again, covert to square feet) and add it to the tubes. Will it be exact? No. Will it be close enough? Sure will.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 5,795Member
    Wow!! I will bet those heat like a SOAB.

    I agree with @Jamie Hall method.

    There is another way but it's not practical. Disconnect it and drop it into a tank of water. Measure the water volume before and after dropping it in. Plug the connections so no water can get inside.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Posts: 711Member
    With pressure at 10psi, why isn't that your first thing to address? Not judging, just asking
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    I can even go with the paint method, but I'll stick with the math :D That was my backup plan anyways, but figured it wouldn't hurt to try the easy way out.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Posts: 711Member

    There is another way but it's not practical. Disconnect it and drop it into a tank of water. Measure the water volume before and after dropping it in. Plug the connections so no water can get inside.

    I don't think that would be accurate. A smaller radiator with a lot of surface area (like the ridges on this one, or one with more columns for example) might have more EDR than a larger volume radiator with smooth surfaces, no?
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    I've seen those before but can't remember what they're called. Is there anything on the end caps at the top?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • FredFred Posts: 7,862Member
    I've seen them before too. I recall a thread on here two, maybe three years ago with some pictures of them. Might be worth a search. I just don't know what key word to narrow down the number of hits.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member

    With pressure at 10psi, why isn't that your first thing to address? Not judging, just asking

    It is, about to order the vaporstat and main vents. But while I wait, I like to have some data to look at it.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Steamhead said:

    I've seen those before but can't remember what they're called. Is there anything on the end caps at the top?

    I could only make out few letters and the patent year under the layers of paint.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    Should be able to search the Patent Office's site using the year and the word "radiator".
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    edited April 13
    It's a Clogston radiator. We have one on display at The General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen. If you're going to Wetstock you'll see it then. Here's what our archivist, Angelo Vigirito, found on it in his research. Sadly, no ratings.

    Retired and loving it.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Thank you ver much Dan!
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    You're welcome, @vvzz2 . I wish I had a rating for you.
    Retired and loving it.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    The ratings have to be out there somewhere.................
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Where they once made them is now a parking garage for Boston Public Market.
    Retired and loving it.
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Retired and loving it.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    Excellent!

    Actually, that's Rolla Carpenter's "Heating & Ventilating Buildings" and he cited John Mills as his source for the table. The book is in the public domain so you can download and save the PDF file.

    I pulled the table out of the main file and have attached it here. It contains not only the Clogston but several others using what amounted to ribbed or ringed pipe. @Erin Holohan Haskell , would you agree this should be filed under "Radiators" in the Museum section?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Good catch, Steamhead. I was typing too fast and thinking too slow. Thanks!
    Retired and loving it.
  • Erin Holohan HaskellErin Holohan Haskell Posts: 1,068Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Steamhead said:

    Excellent!

    Actually, that's Rolla Carpenter's "Heating & Ventilating Buildings" and he cited John Mills as his source for the table. The book is in the public domain so you can download and save the PDF file.

    I pulled the table out of the main file and have attached it here. It contains not only the Clogston but several others using what amounted to ribbed or ringed pipe. @Erin Holohan Haskell , would you agree this should be filed under "Radiators" in the Museum section?

    You got it! Thanks, @Steamhead.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Dave in QCADave in QCA Posts: 1,737Member
    My hats off to Dan and Steamhead! Amazing bit of research, all done in the course of a few hours! Good concrete information for a very unusual and obscure piece of steam heat history. WOW!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Thanks, Dave. That's what this place is all about.
    Retired and loving it.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Thank you so much Dan And Steamhead! Awesome work. Now anxiously waiting for my Gorton #2s and the vaporstat to arrive
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Thanks for saving this beauty, @vvzz2
    Retired and loving it.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Looks like the radiator covers(screen pedestal) are made by Clogson as well. Also of interest is that there are two Clogson radiators side by side in there, but off of one valve.


  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Beautiful. Where is this house?
    Retired and loving it.
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Lowell Mass. The marble tops of those radiator covers are even coordinated with the fireplaces in the room.
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Sweet details. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    Can't wait to see the pic of that pair of Clogstons with the screen pedestal removed..................
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • vvzz2vvzz2 Posts: 16Member
    Steamhead said:

    Can't wait to see the pic of that pair of Clogstons with the screen pedestal removed..................

    There they are. Mr Clogston even thought of a little door in the cover to access the valve!




  • Erin Holohan HaskellErin Holohan Haskell Posts: 1,068Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Wow!
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • ttekushan_3ttekushan_3 Posts: 917Member
    Unbelievable. Stunning!
    terry
  • KiwiFellaKiwiFella Posts: 7Member
    How an earth would these beauties be painted back in them days!
    And I do admire the openness, questions and wisdom on this site. Have been following it for a number of years now and always find really interesting snippets of info.
    Thanks guys (& I s'pose lady/ ladies)
    Happy Easter to thee all
  • DanHolohanDanHolohan Posts: 14,643Member, Moderator, Administrator
    I believe they would immerse them in paint. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • New England SteamWorksNew England SteamWorks Posts: 1,225Member
    edited April 24
    Might help:


    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 12,982Member
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
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