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Faulty combustion analyzer?

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Bill751
Bill751 Member Posts: 119
I just had a contractor back so they could leave me the combustion analyzer printout i wanted the first time they were here. They could not get the analyzer to work properly and the tech said he had no experience with it. he said the company owner usually does this. These are fairly simple devices and not at all above my ability to use or figure out. ( I do however need to read further about combustion, which I would have done extensively prior to today if I was the one supposed to be doing the test.) Anyway, so I helped the guy go through the analyzer and change from C to F for the temp. corrected his startup mistakes and verified he was then doing everything according to his manual. I then put the boiler into the proper state for testing as per the boiler manual.

This particular boiler is to be tested in low fire and adjustments made in low fire only. after you are satisfied with the readings, then you go into hire fire to verify the high fire readings are within the acceptable range for high fire.

I believe I may have the problem figured out. however the tech had the owner of the company on the phone and I could overhear the convo. The owner will be coming back to do the test. From what I heard the owner say, I don't believe he is on the right track at all. In fact I heard him say something that was impossible. But perhaps once he gets his hands on the meter he will figure out the problem if he looks into it. Who's to say he will check into it before he shows back up though? On the phone he was thinking it was my boiler, not his analyzer. So I'm posting here to get some advice on whether or not my suspicions are correct, or if there is something I'm not thinking of.

after the guy left I got online and looked up the meter and downloaded the manual. I learned that the meter has been discontinued. So they have probably owned it at least a while. it's a UEI Eagle 2x.

1. if I had to guess, I would guess it's not calibrated.
2. The manual says "the expected sensor life is more than two years in normal use and yearly calibrations are recommended" How much more than two years is a sensor good for? probably not many or else they would have said 3 or 4 years or something other than 2 correct? since this meter has been discontinued, there's a good chance the sensor is more than two years old. However, I do not know how long ago the model was discontinued.
3. The manual says you must empty the water trap in the meter.
4. the manual says you must change the particle filter regularly to prevent damage to the pump and sensor.

The guy that came could not even figure out how to switch from Celsius to Fahrenheit. I am 100% sure he did not know about the water trap or filter, or a number of other things he needed to know relating to combustion analysis. He was a nice guy but he admitted he is old school and has trouble even using his cell phone other than to make a call. Technology is not his thing he said.

Based on a number of observations I suspect that none of the maintenance has been done and that may be causing the readings we got. I suspect the filter is clogged causing the main issue by creating a very minimal flue gas flow into the meter, or the pump or sensor is damaged. The temp prob seemed to be the only thing reading correctly or at least close to it. I did not see the information about the filter maintenance until after he left, or else I would have checked the filter myself to see how it looked.

This is for Nat gas.

on low fire
02 20.9% ummm what?
C02 0%
CO PPM 0
flue 100 F
inlet 68.5F

High fire. which I don't believe the burner was in high fire long enough to stabilize and get a good reading. The temp probably confirms that. however I did not care at that point because the low fire reading which we need to make adjustments were useless. And also it was clear the tech was in over his head, not to mention he told me so. So the high fire test was basically something we did out of curiosity to see how the meter would respond.

high fire

02 18.9%
co2 1.1%
Co PPM 10
flue 130.2F


Based on my limited knowledge and what I said above, to me it looks like perhaps the analyzer is not able to pull combustion gas into the sensor. perhaps the low Fire 02 reading is simply the air that was in the analyzer before testing began. Am I on to something here or am I completely off base?

It's been a while since I did some light reading on combustion gasses. From what I remember, both the Co and Co2 can't be low at the same time. I was just putting two and two together with the low and zero readings on Co and Co2 combined with the atmospheric and near atmospheric o2 levels to surmise that the meter is not getting enough combustion gas into it. And even if it was, I'd suspect it's out of calibration anyway.

My question is, what are the lowest possible readings you could get on low and high fire for o2, CO and CO2 if the air to fuel was way off yet you had a stable flame?






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Comments

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,205
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    Wow. You need to fire this company immediately before they put you in an unsafe situation due to their incompetence. I have an apprentice with six months experience that is comfortable with combustion analysis.

    The analyzer is shot from the sound of it.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    SuperTech said:

    Wow. You need to fire this company immediately before they put you in an unsafe situation due to their incompetence. I have an apprentice with six months experience that is comfortable with combustion analysis.



    The analyzer is shot from the sound of it.

    Thanks for the reply. luckily I know enough to avoid letting anyone do that. I told him there is no way he could attempt to make adjustments and he agreed. I have a background in the natural gas industry. I just do not have much experience specific to combustion and these small appliances. I am however used to working with/ around live 1200+ psi gas lines. and also various construction/ mechanical experience. I'd be scared to death to have work done around here if I was homeowner without knowledge in such things.

    Over the years I have either talked to or had here almost every company we have around locally. This is 100% typical in my area. They look at the flame and call it good around here. it's a fight to get anyone with an analyzer to actually use it. To be honest I don't believe many around here even have one.
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,205
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    By the sound of it you must be located outside of the Northeast. I've seen other people post the same thing about not being able to get a technician that is fluent in combustion analysis, which is kinda scary. I'm a firm believer in testing all fuel burning equipment.

    Honestly I think it's about time that some major changes are made in the HVAC industry. Combustion analysis and CO awareness should be every bit as mandatory as CFC certification. Perhaps code requirements on the state level could help. This is getting really scary.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    SuperTech said:

    By the sound of it you must be located outside of the Northeast. I've seen other people post the same thing about not being able to get a technician that is fluent in combustion analysis, which is kinda scary. I'm a firm believer in testing all fuel burning equipment.



    Honestly I think it's about time that some major changes are made in the HVAC industry. Combustion analysis and CO awareness should be every bit as mandatory as CFC certification. Perhaps code requirements on the state level could help. This is getting really scary.

    I'm actually in the Northeast however the area I live in is extremely slow to catch up in many fields. We have a few towns that kind of clump into a group and border each other with a population of around 100,000 total I'd guess. Even so, sometimes I feel like I'm living in the stone age around here. I'm not sure why locals take so long to adopt newer technology or practices. I have seen or experienced first hand the majority of the common complaints you read about on the wall. Mod cons are highly frowned upon around here, over sizing is king, no heat loss needed, very minimal care about emitter sizes when replacing boilers. no care about flow other than set the pump on high an go, no combustion or gas pressure checks, don't worry about the majority of safety devices even if they are code. I could go on and on and on. It's really something I tell you.

    I agree something should be done. what it is I am not sure. it's unfortunate when the government has to step in because they often make a mess of things in their own way. however that may be the only solution.

    Yes testing for the purpose of safe operation at the very least, not to mention the benefits of equipment longevity and efficiency. why anyone would be against that is beyond me. I know people who have replaced old 80% rated equipment with mod cons and their energy usage has gone up or remained roughly the same. I do not know anyone personally besides me who has lowered their cost. All contractors told me I need to throw the ODR sensors away, said they belong in the garbage. And I have standing cast iron rads, the perfect emitters for ODR! lol.

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    I had that analyzer for years and use it now as my back up. Came with 5 years free calibration check. So no reason why it should be shot.
    My feeling is no one has ever used it much, and the sensors are bad. But usually it will tell you something.
    Curious as to make/model, oil/gas.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    I had that analyzer for years and use it now as my back up. Came with 5 years free calibration check. So no reason why it should be shot.
    My feeling is no one has ever used it much, and the sensors are bad. But usually it will tell you something.
    Curious as to make/model, oil/gas.

    agree that it's probably seen limited use. Based on the readings I suspected the senor was bad or the filter was clogged and gases not reaching the sensor. not sure how many uses you get before needing to maintenance the filter. just something I saw in the manual. Test results above.

    Gas. HTP UFT
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,205
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    I highly doubt that the analyzer was properly cared for, even with the free five year calibration. It sounds like this company doesn't consider this a very important tool. The plugged filter and full water trap are a definite possibility, another is that the analyzer was left out in the truck overnight and the water inside of it froze.

    I don't know what good it's going to do to have the owner re-check the combustion analysis with the same analyzer. I wouldn't be able to trust the accuracy of the results.

    How the hell do these guys service oil equipment without the proper tools? I suppose they just eyeball the flame and call it good. Where are you located? I should move there, I'd immediately become the most competent technician in town! I could make a killing putting hacks out of business.😆 Super Tech heating and cooling....
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,949
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    Sad but Most companies out here still just set it up by eye.

    Until the consumer is made Aware this practice will continue.
    No combustion analyses, no print out, NO PAY!
    SuperTechdelta T
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,605
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    I had that analyzer for a while. I am wondering if the hoses were properly seated where they plug into the unit. One thing for sure, you will not have combustion at all at those levels.

    They should have a certification from the manufacture for the most recent calibration.

    Check this out
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5qpYSqkbLE&list=PLuuV0ELkYb5VE0I4evUZ30b5U78CRlRdg&index=16&t=1806s
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    If they are not checking combustion, do you think they are checking the safeties either.
    Poorly bleed, fire up, look at flame...run to the next one. Sad.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

    SuperTech
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    SuperTech said:

    I highly doubt that the analyzer was properly cared for, even with the free five year calibration. It sounds like this company doesn't consider this a very important tool. The plugged filter and full water trap are a definite possibility, another is that the analyzer was left out in the truck overnight and the water inside of it froze.



    I don't know what good it's going to do to have the owner re-check the combustion analysis with the same analyzer. I wouldn't be able to trust the accuracy of the results.



    How the hell do these guys service oil equipment without the proper tools? I suppose they just eyeball the flame and call it good. Where are you located? I should move there, I'd immediately become the most competent technician in town! I could make a killing putting hacks out of business.😆 Super Tech heating and cooling....

    I agree, that was the impression I got from them. I could be wrong but it didn't seem like it was something they used very often. After reading the manual I saw that the analyzer needs to be purged after use. They guy did not do that either.

    I agree about rechecking it with that meter. My hope was once the owner got his hands on the meter that he tried it out on hi own equipment and realized the problem. Then fixes it by getting a new sensor or whatever is required. I have not heard from him yet which is disappointing me further.

    I'm not sure of my next move. They have put me in a spot. I hired them to commission the boiler with an analyzer so that my warranty would be valid. Well they signed and filled out one of the sheets required but not the one with the combustion numbers. I happened to get a boiler with a known manufacturer defect right out of the box, and the solution is the board needs replaced. I suspect when i go to file a warranty claim for a new board, the first thing HTP is going to want is both signed papers. Due to various occupational backgrounds I am far more than competent enough to have purchased a analyzer myself and learned all there is to know about it. Then performed the work myself. They're pretty basic devices. I get hung up on doing things right, sometimes to the extreme. so I would have followed procedures to a T. unfortunately due to the manufacturers policy ( which i know they all have) I was forced to hire someone and here I am stuck in a situation.

    I'd suspect they eyeball the flame for oil but I couldn't say for sure. The reason I suspect that is, it is standard procedure around here. so they very well may just do what is common practice. I'm in my 40's and only one time have I seen a company use a wet kit. They had to come back the next day because visible smoke was coming out of the stack, which it was not doing prior to their adjustments. As for analyzers, despite me for the last maybe 8 years or so telling them that is what I want done for service, this is the first time a contractor actually brought one.

    I sure wish someone from the wall would open up shop here. Starting a couple years ago I now basically do just about everything myself and my results have been great. The down side is finding the time to learn everything and do the work. Someone who does it every day can get the job done much faster. I currently have 4 systems.

    Basically how it works around here is you call someone and tell them what you want done, they agree. if you're lucky they show up. Then they tell you you don't need done what you want done that they agreed to before coming. You either go along with what they say, or they get high and mighty, do nothing and leave. That in a nutshell has been my experience for the last 25 years since I have owned property. This current company was the first one who believed in heat loss calculations . They showed up on time and both the owner and the tech were personable. The whole analyzer debacle was a let down. I'm still clinging to a little bit of hope that they get it fixed and get me out of this jam. some of the things said really surprised me though. Those numbers should have been a clear indicator to them what the problem was. That was surprising that it wasn't.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    pecmsg said:

    Sad but Most companies out here still just set it up by eye.



    Until the consumer is made Aware this practice will continue.

    No combustion analyses, no print out, NO PAY!

    I just don't understand the whole still using the eye thing in 2019. Yes someone skilled can get it fairly close, at least with oil right? ( I don't know about gas) but not analyzer close. I could be wrong but I believe I read long ago that with oil, the most skilled old school tech could not tell the last 10% . meaning when the flame looked as good as the human eye can distinguish. You may still have 10% less efficient combustion than you would if it was set up with an equipment. Maybe you'd get lucky and be right on, or maybe 10% off. No way the eye could distinguish. That is wasting my fuel. That right there sold me on using equipment.
    SuperTech
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,600
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    Bill751 said:

    pecmsg said:

    Sad but Most companies out here still just set it up by eye.



    Until the consumer is made Aware this practice will continue.

    No combustion analyses, no print out, NO PAY!

    ... That is wasting my fuel. That right there sold me on using equipment.

    This is why my company allowed me to purchase my own equipment to test combustion. We cant wait for a qualified tech to find time to help us. They are always super busy.


    Bill751
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,505
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    Gas, right? I assume they didn't check gas pressure either.
    Did you do check in "Find a Contractor" section. At least list your zip code. There may be a Wallie nearby.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    Zman said:

    I had that analyzer for a while. I am wondering if the hoses were properly seated where they plug into the unit. One thing for sure, you will not have combustion at all at those levels.

    They should have a certification from the manufacture for the most recent calibration.

    Check this out
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5qpYSqkbLE&list=PLuuV0ELkYb5VE0I4evUZ30b5U78CRlRdg&index=16&t=1806s

    Thanks for the video. I watched part of a different one last night and did a little bit of reading. But I will watch this one later too.

    The hoses looked good and secure. I did think to check those and also that the hose was not blocked. I was unaware of the water trap and filter at the time the tech was here so those weren't checked.

    I'd bet they have no cert. I could be wrong though.

    That was the first thing i said to the tech, I said we can see the flame so how can we have those readings. At the time I wasn't sure that the air to fuel wasn't so far out that it went beyond or below what the meter registers. That didn't seem likely or possible, especially since we have a stable flame. However I had two professionals telling me that perhaps that was the problem. That my air to fuel was so far out it was causing the readings. I later read in the analyzer manual what the actual ranges of the analyzer were. which did confirm my suspicions that the meter had all the range in needed to show what was going on no matter how far off air to fuel was. I also re read last night how the various gases change in relation to each other with either a lean or rich condition. that as well was a dead give away that those reading were impossible.

    What they were saying didn't add up to me and I stated that, but at the same time i said I didn't have enough knowledge to know for sure what was going on, only what seemed likely.
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    Must been one of those super green high efficiency units, 20.8 02 in 20.8 02 out, super low carbon monoxide to save the planet

    -- sarcasm
    ZmanSuperTech
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    GBart said:

    Must been one of those super green high efficiency units, 20.8 02 in 20.8 02 out, super low carbon monoxide to save the planet

    -- sarcasm

    haha Green new deal special
    GBart
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    Gas, right? I assume they didn't check gas pressure either.
    Did you do check in "Find a Contractor" section. At least list your zip code. There may be a Wallie nearby.

    you would be correct. However I did check it. I bought a cheap manometer. In the reviews for the unit people claimed it was accurate when put up against expensive units heating techs had. they claimed to get the same readings.

    what I found concerns me and I needed to do further research on it. it may just be that my cheap manometer is inaccurate. I had planned to ask the tech yesterday to check it with his and ask him my questions. although I see they don't appear to be up on this stuff so that may not have done me any good. once things went off the rails I decided there was not point in using his equipment.

    My static inlet pressure is 9.11"
    At fire up it drops to 8.69" so a .42" pressure drop which is within the 0.5" limit. it then stabilizes around 8.9" at what I would guess was a medium low fire rate.

    I assume that the maximum drop for all fire rates is the 0.5" however I could not find anywhere that actually stated that was for all fire rates. I read everything and watched a video put out by HTP doing an analysis on a UFT. they're talking about the 0.5" drop being the max on fire up. They could be meaning that it is the max at all fire rates, but they do not clearly make that distinction in the video or literature.

    I assumed 0.5" max is for any fire rate. if that is the case, then I may have a problem. at high fire I drop to 8.15"

    I could not get an accurate reading on outlet pressure.

    and like I said, I cannot guarantee this manometer is 100% accurate. so I'm not positive my 8.15" reading is true.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,605
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    GBart said:

    Must been one of those super green high efficiency units, 20.8 02 in 20.8 02 out, super low carbon monoxide to save the planet

    -- sarcasm

    I would say 100% efficient, just like a parked car...
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    GBart
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    @Bill751

    The reading your getting are basically almost reading straight air so the 02 sensor was not reading. From what I know these testers test for 02 and the CO2 is calculated off that.

    On gas your Co2 should be in the 7,8 or 9 range. Stack temp should be 300-550. C0 the lowe the better. Less than 100 is ok to run but you really want it under 50

    Bill751
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    CO levels greater than 400-ppm air-free are not permissible, and they require immediate repair and/or shutdown of the appliance.
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,194
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    SuperTech said:

    Wow. You need to fire this company immediately before they put you in an unsafe situation due to their incompetence. I have an apprentice with six months experience that is comfortable with combustion analysis.



    The analyzer is shot from the sound of it.

    Could just be the filter plugged as you mentioned. But I would not be impressed. This stuff isn’t that hard, and when you not sure there are instructions. Dude should have sat in the truck for 10 minutes and read the manual before coming inside.

    Might be time to shop for a new company. Although sadly in smaller areas, there is little demand for this equipment because a most companies mostly sell furnaces. They are typically not adjustable like atmospheric equipment, or gas burners or oil equipment. My company does not even own a combustion Analzer. I just bought a basic Fieldpiece accessory head to use on my own boiler and keep handy for the few times we might want to use one. We do use check flue CO on new installs on boilers and tankless water heaters.

    Good luck!

  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    Sometimes when I watch a video I wonder if someone is trying to teach us or impress us. Not sure the guy speaking has done any testing in the field.

    One of my favorite conversations is LOW NOX burners. NOX is formed by burners burning hot. This is also how maximum btus are produced. Lowering the flame temperature lowers the amount of NOX being made and the amount of btus. So we reduced NOX and increase the amount of CO2 we make? Smart!
    NOX being a greenhouse gas was a theory that was disproven in 1990.

    The year is 2019. Should we all be using digital combustion analyzers by now? They have only been available for 41 years.

    I got a cell phone its 4G or 5G. I got an I-pad. I got a 80" flat screen TV. But I don't have the tools to do my job.
    Solid_Fuel_ManSuperTechZman
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,600
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    Doesn't Nox contribute to acid rain which kills foliage?
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    That was a theory in the 1970's but was disproven by EPRI in 1990 by actual measurements
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,600
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    Hmmm. I don't know if I buy that. There is an awful lot on the internet about the harm caused by Nox and NO2.

    Plus, if it was disproven, Why does my newest burner still have RFG ? All of my burners are 10 or younger and they have RFG.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Luckily for you Bill... HTP test fires and adjust the UFT's before leaving their plant (that's why you get water out of them after removing the rubber caps from the connection ports). Out of the five or six I've asked owners/installers about... all have been within factory spec right out of the box. Of course things can happen in transit and during the install which is why the CA needs to be done upon commissioning.

    I wouldn't let these fools touch my boiler after the dog and pony show they put on for you.

    You could always purchase your own CA, learn how to use it... it's a very handy device to have around and will pay for itself in a couple of years. If you don't want to keep it... sell it for a small loss on fleabay.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    There is a lot of information on how radon will cause cancer and ozone will hurt your lungs.

    Radon: If you live 200 feet underground for 70 years, spending 75% of your time there and smoke you could get lung cancer.

    Ozone: Is nature purifier. NOX doesn't make Ozone. Mother Nature make ozone to clean up the air,

    NOX: May cause illness if exposed to high levels. What are high levels. Highest NOX in China and New England. Do they have low NOX volcano's or forest fires?

    Nitrogen needed to replenish the soil to help plants generate more protein. Needed in the body and comes from plants.

    When California introduced Low Nox legislation energy usage went up over 20%. Low Nox equipment wastes energy.

    :
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,000
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    captainco said:

    The year is 2019. Should we all be using digital combustion analyzers by now? They have only been available for 41 years.

    Probably because these companies don't want to spend the money. Seems every place I've worked recently, the owner has never seen an analyzer when previous companies worked on their systems. But how much do lawyers cost?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    captaincoSuperTech
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    If they are not checking combustion, do you think they are checking the safeties either.
    Poorly bleed, fire up, look at flame...run to the next one. Sad.

    True. That is what you generally get around here. I'm sick of it! It's why I do all my own work now with the exception of commissioning the boiler as required by the manufacturer. The last Mod con I had put in one of my buildings a couple years ago had several stupid mistakes. backwards mono flow T's, nonsense piping that dumped supply temp water from a very small rad (1st rad in single monoflo loop) back into the return several feet from the boiler and killed my delta T, leaks and so on. I would prefer to just pay someone as they can do the job quicker than I can since they do the work every day, and I also must take the time to learn or refresh because I don't do this stuff often. I'd rather not invest so much time into it. But if I don't, this seems to be the result I get every time. I pay money then I'm left to sort out the mistakes.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    Did you do check in "Find a Contractor" section. At least list your zip code. There may be a Wallie nearby.

    Missed answering that part. Yes I checked. 2 hours 15 minutes away is the closest one.

  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    GBart said:

    CO levels greater than 400-ppm air-free are not permissible, and they require immediate repair and/or shutdown of the appliance.

    Once I get this sorted out. I'll be one of the very few in my area who knows what their levels are.
    SuperTech
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    mikeg2015 said:

    SuperTech said:

    Wow. You need to fire this company immediately before they put you in an unsafe situation due to their incompetence. I have an apprentice with six months experience that is comfortable with combustion analysis.



    The analyzer is shot from the sound of it.

    Could just be the filter plugged as you mentioned. But I would not be impressed. This stuff isn’t that hard, and when you not sure there are instructions. Dude should have sat in the truck for 10 minutes and read the manual before coming inside.

    Might be time to shop for a new company. Although sadly in smaller areas, there is little demand for this equipment because a most companies mostly sell furnaces. They are typically not adjustable like atmospheric equipment, or gas burners or oil equipment. My company does not even own a combustion Analzer. I just bought a basic Fieldpiece accessory head to use on my own boiler and keep handy for the few times we might want to use one. We do use check flue CO on new installs on boilers and tankless water heaters.

    Good luck!

    Yes I've talked to or had here almost all of them over the years. I have not gotten all around good results yet. This was the first one who believed in heat loss calculations. I was hopeful for a minuter there but it's not looking so good now. Not even a call back from the owner or attempt to rectify the situation, it's been a few days now.
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,194
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    Bill751 said:

    mikeg2015 said:

    SuperTech said:

    Wow. You need to fire this company immediately before they put you in an unsafe situation due to their incompetence. I have an apprentice with six months experience that is comfortable with combustion analysis.



    The analyzer is shot from the sound of it.

    Could just be the filter plugged as you mentioned. But I would not be impressed. This stuff isn’t that hard, and when you not sure there are instructions. Dude should have sat in the truck for 10 minutes and read the manual before coming inside.

    Might be time to shop for a new company. Although sadly in smaller areas, there is little demand for this equipment because a most companies mostly sell furnaces. They are typically not adjustable like atmospheric equipment, or gas burners or oil equipment. My company does not even own a combustion Analzer. I just bought a basic Fieldpiece accessory head to use on my own boiler and keep handy for the few times we might want to use one. We do use check flue CO on new installs on boilers and tankless water heaters.

    Good luck!

    Yes I've talked to or had here almost all of them over the years. I have not gotten all around good results yet. This was the first one who believed in heat loss calculations. I was hopeful for a minuter there but it's not looking so good now. Not even a call back from the owner or attempt to rectify the situation, it's been a few days now.
    Did you give them a check yet? If so, that’s why. they’ve written you off. COuld also just be busy. Sometimes you need ot be a squeaky wheel. Silence is mistakingly interpreted as everything is OK, or you don’t care anymore.

  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
    edited March 2019
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    in reply to Mikeg2015


    No, but i did call the office after the tech left on Wednesday and asked that the owner call me back. no word yet. Prior to this he usually called back within 4 to 12 hours.
  • Bill751
    Bill751 Member Posts: 119
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    NY_Rob said:

    Luckily for you Bill... HTP test fires and adjust the UFT's before leaving their plant (that's why you get water out of them after removing the rubber caps from the connection ports). Out of the five or six I've asked owners/installers about... all have been within factory spec right out of the box. Of course things can happen in transit and during the install which is why the CA needs to be done upon commissioning.

    I wouldn't let these fools touch my boiler after the dog and pony show they put on for you.

    You could always purchase your own CA, learn how to use it... it's a very handy device to have around and will pay for itself in a couple of years. If you don't want to keep it... sell it for a small loss on fleabay.

    Good to know Rob, thanks. I didn't know if they did or did not do that at the factory, looking back I do remember the water but figured it was from a pressure test. i wonder how accurate it would be due to the variation in acceptable gas pressure range. such as if they set it up with 4" pressure and the homeowner had 10" of pressure, i assumed the mix would be off a bit. but good to know the people you've talked said there's was within spec.

    From the start I would have bought my own analyzer. however I was concerned about having a warranty on the boiler. so that is why I hired someone to commission it and do the CA. I needed them to fill out and sign the paperwork. Otherwise I would have been fine doing it myself. So now i have the back sheet signed by the company, but they did not fill out and sign the checklist with the CA numbers. As you know I have that warranty issue and need a new control board. Now these guys have put me in a spot. Not sure what the next move is. I guess try to find someone else, but then I have two different companies on the paperwork. Not sure how HTP would feel about that.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    NOx is a regulated emission. We started using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) in the 70s on automotive engines. Now most manufacturers use variable valve timing to do the same thing.

    Lowering combustion temperatures is not only applied to heating equipment. It does indeed waste fuel in the automotive world, but I do not know enough about it in the stationary burner world to know how it affects burner efficiency.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 796
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    Definition = Temperature equals the amount of btus any substance contains.

    NOX is caused by flame temperatures above 2500 degrees or so. To lower NOX we must lower flame temperature which lowers the btu value of the flame. Less btus, less efficiency, longer run times, more green house gases. (except NOX)
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,600
    edited March 2019
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    Steamhead said:

    captainco said:

    The year is 2019. Should we all be using digital combustion analyzers by now? They have only been available for 41 years.

    Probably because these companies don't want to spend the money. Seems every place I've worked recently, the owner has never seen an analyzer when previous companies worked on their systems. But how much do lawyers cost?
    The turnover is so high in most hvac companies. Even if you trained people, they would leave. And, the ones that stay may be incompetent with an analyzer.

    As I type this, I’m not only thinking of the new install in my mother’s house that I just flew up to tune (another tread) but my own house that has a furnace in the attic that has never had an analyzer on it!! And it was installed by a reputable co. And, I have an analyzer that I use on my home’s boiler annually ( I installed it ) but never on the furnace!

    So yeah, you are right!

    I know what I’ll be doing very soon
  • gennady
    gennady Member Posts: 839
    edited March 2019
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    Setting boiler without analyzer is mission impossible. Sometimes i see nice flame and analysis is terrible, sometimes flame looks terrible and results are fantastic. Go figure.