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Hartford loop and waterline.

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kcopp
kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
Peerless ECT steam boiler. The normal waterline seems quite high in this boiler. If the Hartford loop was piped too low say 15 inches down from the top would that affect the water line? Getting nuicence lockouts w the cyclrgard Lwco....

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  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,635
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    The elevation of the Hartford Loop won't affect where the water line actually is in the boiler. The Cyclegard LWCO does have an intermittent test feature which is intended to compensate for foaming; it can be a real nuisance... but it is now it is intended to operate.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    Thanks. 1st time w/ this boiler. Usually use a WBV as my steam stuff is smaller. Wanted to do a 63-05L but none anywhere. 4 weeks from the factory. Here I am w this and a Carlin Ez gas. I was watching this fire up and just as soon as the intermittent level test cut in the water line dropped 2” and the boiler went into low water. It does this each cycle. There is no auto feeder on this. Have to add water. A real pain. Trying to figure out why this issue.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2019
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    The water level is going to drop and be unstable until you get all the oils out of the boiler and any new piping. Skim, Skim, Skim. Also, it looks like you could use a larger vent on that trap/bucket. I'm not sure it should be Tee'd in to the vertical pipe, above the water line, but someone more knowledgeable on two pipe systems can chime in on that.
    Is this a counter flow system? Looks like the main is pitched down at the boiler/header. I don't see a drip though. Maybe just the angle of the picture.
    Nice header!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,635
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    Potentially stupid question -- why the trap bucket trap? If that vertical goes down to a wet return, as it should, the trap will never see water. So why not just a vent? Which is what you need there -- but a much larger one. At a guess, a Gorton #2... which may help with the dropping problem, if the vent you have there isn't opening properly.

    Another stupid question. Do you have to add water on every cycle? If not, does the water level recover when you shut off for a while? In any case, yes as @Fred said -- skim, skim, skim. That may help with the dropping problem too.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    I like that boiler but I question the low water cutoff location. Always seemed too high to me.

    I posted on this maybe a year and 4 months back and someone else posted back with the same problem with that boiler. (have to look for that post). I believe the second poster relocated the LWCO to a different tapping (they may have called Peerless for permission). We didn't move ours and they eventually someone from my company went and added a feeder don't know how that worked out but we were tripping LWCO after a good skimming with good piping when I was there.

    Respectfully have to disagree with @Jamie Hall to me the water line lives at the level you fill it to. The low end goverened by the LWCO and the Hartford loop

    Probably a PITA to raise the Hartford but to me that or moving the LWCO if Peerless permits....I gotta look for the old post
    kcopp
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    Biggest system I have worked on. 500+ EDR. It’s has 2 pipe and single. I believe it’s a Webster. Hoping to not screw it up.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    "Peerless ETC steamer new install"

    @kcopp This is the title posted in Sept 2017. If you read the post you can see he issues.

    There is also a telephone # from Rich @ Peerless who responded to the post.

    I never called him but the info is there if you need it
    kcopp
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    @kcopp
    if you go to Peerless web site they show (2) tappings for the low water cutoff. "P" & "K"

    One is the factory installed LWCO position like on your boiler which is the higher tapping they call it primary LWCO.

    The second one is under the tankless heater opening called the secondary low water cut off
    kcopp
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    We fired this up yesterday. I did need to add water each cycle. I got there today and flushed out the system, skimmed for and hour AND removed the check valve on the bottom return.
    This made a difference.
    We will return Monday to skim more.
    The webster trap up there I didn't want to mess w/ until I got more info. It doesn't look like it does much now. I can certainly replace the vent.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,635
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    Oh I don't think we disagree at all, @EBEBRATT-Ed -- certainly I'd say that the water line lives where you -- or your automatic feeder -- set it! Didn't mean to imply otherwise -- sloppy writing on my part.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    @Jamie Hall , it's all good. Steam. It has a mind of it's own that's why we all love it. Every job is different. Just when you think you know all about it......you don't.

    Hot water and scorched air are so.............boring
    Double Dkcopp
  • Voyager
    Voyager Member Posts: 395
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    @Jamie Hall , it's all good. Steam. It has a mind of it's own that's why we all love it. Every job is different. Just when you think you know all about it......you don't.

    Hot water and scorched air are so.............boring

    Boring, yes, but oh so responsive, comfortable and flexible. Let the darts fly! 😁
    Dave in QCA
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Voyager said:

    @Jamie Hall , it's all good. Steam. It has a mind of it's own that's why we all love it. Every job is different. Just when you think you know all about it......you don't.

    Hot water and scorched air are so.............boring

    Boring, yes, but oh so responsive, comfortable and flexible. Let the darts fly! 😁
    Hah!!! Off with his head! :p
    kcoppVoyagerDave in QCA
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    I'm going to have to give Peerless a call.
    I really want to drop the LWCO in the boiler. Went off again last night.… Still need to skim it more but I cant have this.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    @kcopp copied and pasted from my old post.

    RichMRichM Posts: 2Member

    September 2017



    Good afternoon;

    And thank you for choosing Peerless boilers. Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Rich Michael from PB Heat,LLC we are the manufacturer of Peerless Boilers. My title with PB is Commercial Specialist. Please feel free to contact with your questions. My mobile number is (973) 462-6754

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    kcopp
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    @kcopp What model ETC is that? I looked at the ETC-5 diagram and it looks like the tapping (L) you are using is for the Pressuretrol and there should be a tapping (T), maybe an inch or two above the bottom of the sight glass for the LWCO.

    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/507326/Peerless-Ect-Series.html?page=13#manual
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    It is a packaged ETC 4....
    Its the tapping to the left on the gauge glass.
    Its only an inch or so below the top of the top of the glass.
    Pretty small area to make steam.
    There is a plug just below the pressuretrol.

  • nicholas bonham-carter
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    The manual should give the exact height of the waterline from the boiler bottom, and from that, you can determine whether your LWCO is in the right tapping. When you move the LWCO consider changing it out for one with out the cutoff feature.
    Did you ever tell us whether the water returns to the normal level, when the boiler cuts off after firing. Closing off any makeup water feed valve would show that.
    When the boiler is making pressure, the water level in the wet returns will rise 1.75 inches for every ounce of pressure. Some dry returns have a horizontal element element in the piping, slightly above the waterline, and this can hide a lot of water from the boiler.
    The check valve may have been a kludge to deal with that problem.—NBC
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    The manual should give the exact height of the waterline from the boiler bottom, and from that, you can determine whether your LWCO is in the right tapping. Manual only states that HL is 2-4" belowthe normal water line...
    When you move the LWCO consider changing it out for one with out the cutoff feature. I may justdo that...
    Did you ever tell us whether the water returns to the normal level, when the boiler cuts off after firing. Closing off any makeup water feed valve would show that. The water line does not move much... I need to skim more to see if that helps 100%
    When the boiler is making pressure, the water level in the wet returns will rise 1.75 inches for every ounce of pressure. Some dry returns have a horizontal element element in the piping, slightly above the waterline, and this can hide a lot of water from the boiler. Boiler pressure gauge never moves...also I don't see any "elements" in the piping. It would be hard to see as they are all coated in asbestos
    The check valve may have been a kludge to deal with that problem
  • nicholas bonham-carter
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    When our old American Standard boiler rusted through, and we installed a Peerless 211A, (1,050,000), there was a check valve in the wet return, which we determined should not be there, and removed it.
    We immediately had a disappearing waterline, and so I skimmed and skimmed and skimmed some more-still the problem persisted. The water always came back afterwards.
    One night while skimming, I had the aha moment. I looked at the six old wet returns, and saw that they dropped down in steps, with horizontals at a little above the boiler waterline, so maybe a combined total of 20 feet of 2 inch pipe.
    When the boiler made moderate pressure, it tried to supply enough water to raise up the wet returns 1.75 inches per ounce, and that was enough to drop the water to cutoff level, as it filled up the horizontals.
    We repiped the wets with straight drops, and the problem was solved. Then on to main venting………—NBC
    Voyager
  • Voyager
    Voyager Member Posts: 395
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    Fred said:

    Voyager said:

    @Jamie Hall , it's all good. Steam. It has a mind of it's own that's why we all love it. Every job is different. Just when you think you know all about it......you don't.

    Hot water and scorched air are so.............boring

    Boring, yes, but oh so responsive, comfortable and flexible. Let the darts fly! 😁
    Hah!!! Off with his head! :p
    I should not pick on people who make their living with 3’ long pipe wrenches. 😂
    Fred
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    @kcopp , did that boiler come with a MM#67 float type LWCO as standard? If it did, the low water level is about an 1.5" to 2" from the bottom of the sight glass. The MM#67 gets mounted off of a Tee on the bottom fitting of the sight glass.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    The boiler is a package with the LWCO installed in the tapping Peerless wants you to use. If you look on their website it is called the "primary low water cut off tapping"

    They also show a "secondary low water cutoff tapping" below the tankless heater opening. You could also use a #67 I guess which I think would be my choice.

    Others (including me) have had problems with this. I like the boiler a lot but using the "primary" factory tapping makes 0 sense to me
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    @EBEBRATT-Ed , this page of the Owner's manual, says that the standard equipment for a packaged boiler is a float type LWCO and that the probe type is optional.
    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/507326/Peerless-Ect-Series.html?page=2#manual
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
    edited February 2019
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    @Fred,
    Don't know about that, but times change. The link you posted is the 20002 manual.

    They must have switched over to probes.The probe low water cutoffs are factory installed....not installed in the field. I have installed a few. @kcopp's boiler is the same as mine. @AMservices posted on one in response to my post back in 9/17.

    Peerless shows (2) probe LWCO tappings. They come factory installed in the "higher" tapping which Peerless calls the "primary Probe Low water cutoff" that tapping is about 1/2 way up the gage glass.They also show a "secondary probe LWCO tapping" located under the ankless heater opening which is where @AMservices relocated theres too.

    Wish Peerless would respond and put this to bed
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    @EBEBRATT-Ed , my apologies. I never even looked at the date on that manual.
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,787
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    Potentially stupid question -- why the trap bucket trap? If that vertical goes down to a wet return, as it should, the trap will never see water. So why not just a vent? Which is what you need there -- but a much larger one. At a guess, a Gorton #2... which may help with the dropping problem, if the vent you have there isn't opening properly.

    Another stupid question. Do you have to add water on every cycle? If not, does the water level recover when you shut off for a while? In any case, yes as @Fred said -- skim, skim, skim. That may help with the dropping problem too.

    Jaimie, I think the devise you're referring to is an Air Eliminator, similar to Dunham, but I have not seen this particular model before, but it's piped in the same way. As you know, the air eliminator is simply an air vent with a float to close the vent port if water backs into the return line. Therefore, a steam limiting devise such as steam vent that has been added to this eliminator is not needed, providing all of the radiator traps are working properly. It is common to see a steam air vent added like this one when there are bad traps. Also, after the skimming is sufficiently completed, it should be determined if the boiler is losing water. I think I see a return line coming up out of the basement floor and we all know that buried return lines are prone to rusting out and causing boiler failure. This should be check out because the new boiler won't last long if that return is leaking underground.

    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    Well I had a conversation w/ Peerless today. The Gentleman was very nice.
    You guys are correct the tapping the CG450 is in is the "primary" lwco. They Do Not want me to move it to the "secondary" tapping on the RH side.
    I explained to him what was happening.
    He actually referred me to "Pocket Full of Steam Problems"...(which I looked at last night.)
    I let the young apprentice sit and skim the boiler for about 3 hours today. And I added a VXT feeder.
    We shall see how that works.
    Thanks for the insight.
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,448
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    The old unit was not losing water. Part of the reason I added the VXT is that I can see how much water is added and can dig up the return.
    Overall to the system that buried return is not all that old...
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,829
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    @kcopp
    Would like to know Peerless reasoning for mounting the cutoff in that tapping. Just seems to me to be too near the normal water line, a little bounce or a little delay in condensate and your done. I guess the feeder will keep it running. Time will ........tell

    @Fred no apology needed. They would all be 67s if I had my way....old school
    kcopp