Poor heat on second floor

Bgaspard

Hello All,

I was hoping you could help me with the below.

Essentially, the second floor of my house gets little to no heat. Even when the radiators heat up, they don't feel as warm as the ones in the attic or the second floor. I have tried everything including balancing with different valves sizes. I have a one-pipe steam system. Boiler is Weill Mclain EG-65. I'm thinking the problem may be the way the main lines are vented. I have attached pics for convenience. Let me know what you think. (see the files attached at the bottom.)

Jamie Hall

Main vents look OK -- have you tried slowing down the radiators which are getting warmer faster?

Bgaspard

Yes, I have. I have Gorton number 4 installed on the radiators closest to the boiler. I even have number 6 on the ones installed in the attic as they heat up pretty quickly also. On the second floor, I have Gorton C valves installed throughout the entire floor. I had added a Gorton D on one of the radiators in the master to help vent quickly, but that has not proven to work.

Bgaspard

Let me add that I removed the steam vents at the end of each main, and noted a combination of water and steam coming out of it, so much it required a mop to clean it.

Gsmith

How many steam mains do you have. Looks like a main in the third picture has no vent? Does it? Does that main feed the cold area?

Bgaspard

PLease see below for the recommended near-boiler piping, and compare to how my system is currently piped.

Fred

The mains look pretty level. Are they pitched down towards the return piping where the vents are mounted? Is there any sags in the mains where water could be pooled? Any where water can lay in the piping, steam will condense and not get to the radiators. Is there any banging or water hammer?
As I said in your other post, One Gorton #2 on 45ft. , 3" mains is not enough to vent the mains easily. A good portion of the heat cycle time is spent pushing air out of the mains. Try putting at least one more Gorton #2 or a Barnes and Jones Big Mouth on the main that feeds the second floor and see if that improves the heat. If it does, do the same on the other main and then re-balance your radiator vents.

Fred

One other item to check: Does the main that feeds the second floor problem radiators happen to branch off of the regular (primary ) main or does just one riser go up to the second floor with radiators feeding off of that riser? If it is a Branch, that needs to be vented as well. If it is a single riser, finding a place to add a riser on the top or just before the last radiator on that riser may solve the problem as well.

Fred

I also looked up the manufacturer's minimum installation requirements for your boiler. One riser is suppose to be adequate but that is a minimum. It would have been much better had they used both but it should work ok.

I did notice, in your third picture (the main to the forefront) it looks like they reduced the end of the main, on the horizontal, just before it turns down. Is that the main that feeds the second floor? If it is, it is possible that that main is holding some water due to that horizontal reduction. Steam pipes should always be reduced on the vertical. If that is the main that feeds the second floor, having that fitting changed to a reducing elbow with the small end down may fix the problem.

Gsmith

And, does that main @fred refers to have a vent?

coelcanth

also, check your thermostat and make sure it's set up correctly for your steam boiler (if it has an anticipator or cycles per hour setting)

..even though i had improved my main venting, i was still having problems getting steam to the second floor because the anticipator was set too fast and was shutting down the boiler before all the risers were filled with steam

maybe not your problem, because you say attic is warm but then you also say second floor is not as warm as the second floor so...?

and where is your thermostat located ?? definitely try slowing down the venting in that room !

SteamingatMohawk

I had a problem with venting in my "converted two family". See comment in the December 18 discussion with that title.

It would take 5 minutes for the shorter rear supply to heat up and another 5-10 minutes for the longer front to heat up. I read the addition to "Balancing Steam Systems, Using a Venting Capacity Chart" about over venting and replaced all my Varivalves which were almost completely open with smaller vents. Amazingly the two supplies heated up much quicker and I have been able to balance the system. I was skeptical at first, but am now convinced there is something to the theory.

If you have Gorton C and Ds on the second floor you may be experiencing the same problem with over venting. I don't completely understand the thermodynamics and hydraulics about it, but it did make a tremendous difference for me. Now the supplies both warm up in almost the same time, with much smaller venting at the radiators. I urge you to read the addition and think about how your system is performing.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your main vent locations are not ideal with the vents coming off the side of the pipes. You said you got a mixture of steam and water with the vents removed. Any water will close the vent and not let it vent. Vents should be on top of the returns 18" back from the drop if possible. Your ceilings look fairly low so this may be difficult. You will also have to keep the boiler pressure as low as possible to keep return water out of those vents.

I never recommend vaporstats and low pressure gages but you need them here. The boiler piping looks ok.

I agree with @Fred find the second floor riser and add a vent at the top of the riser. also check that everything is pitched

Dave0176

The near boiler piping is correct as per the Manufacturer minimum. I have a question because an EG65 boiler is BIG 250,000 BTU and 654 SQ FT steam output. Have you had your radiators measured to get an EDR (SQ FT of Steam) to compare it to the output of the boiler? Sounds like there's a bit oversizing going on.

To put it in another perspective that boiler is capable of supplying enough steam for about 22, 7200 BTU radiators, and that's not including the 1.33% pickup factor.

Bgaspard

Hey ALL,

I appreciate the comments, and apologize i am replying so late . I didn't get a notification in my email, and didn't realize you had commented until I logged on the website.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Let me caveat that facing then house from the outside, the left side is much colder than the right. Boiler is installed on the right side. Master is almost not a good place to sleep on a 20 degree night. House has poor insulation if at all on the outside wall, except the kitchen.

To Fred, I have two Gorton valves #2 at the end of each main. I hear banging on the pipe mostly at night when it's really quiet.
As you would see in the video uploaded and the additional pics shared, both lines appear to feed the second floor. On the thermostat, I am using a Nest 2nd generation.

To Dave, the boiler was already in the house when I bought. I suppose previous owners had it replace at some point, and the EG 65 is what he got. I have about 16 radiators in the entire house (3 in the attic, 6 on the second floor, 7 on the first floor Not sure if/whether they properly size the unit accordingly, but I always get the same expression from anyone who sets foot in the basement saying how big the boiler is. I cannot afford another one right now, so hoping to make it work.

To Ebebratt, I agree with you. I have read many literatures that recommend placing the vent about 10 inches before the end of the main. Not sure why they would place it there. I suspect it is because of the ceiling, but I have plenty of room above the sheet rock. I can easily retro fit it. In addition, I have the pressuretrol set at the lowest value possible ( see pics_.5 and 1 for a total of 1.5)
To Coelcanth, You might be right. I have installed No6 in the attic, and it continues to work just fine. I have read posts that suggest having the same size throughout the entire house or vent based on the size of the radiators regardless of location. All my radiators appear to be of the same size, and the bigger rooms like the living, the kitchen, and master have two of them installed. I will try size 5 or 6 on the second, and see if that works.

Thanks all for your much appreciated help.
Also, If you know a good steam plumber in the NJ area, fill free to share info.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Bgaspard said:

Hey ALL,
I appreciate the comments, and apologize i am replying so late . I didn't get a notification in my email, and didn't realize you had commented until I logged on the website.

Thanks, @Bgaspard. You can set your email notification preferences in your profile. Here's how to do that and some other tips for using the forum: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

Bgaspard

Thanks, Erin.

gfrbrookline

What do you have for radiator vents on the first floor?

Bgaspard

@gfbrookline_I mostly have Gorton # 4 above the boiler, and 5 on the other side on the first floor. Have Gorton C throughout the second floor . I have number 5 in the attic since it heats up pretty quickly.

gfrbrookline

The Gorton C's are your problems. Do the radiators heat across the top only and the bottom middle is warm/cold?

The radiators are probably vented too fast and should warm up much better with Gorton 4 or 5's. I would put Ventrite No. 1's on them so you can dial them in.

Fred

Do you have a programmable thermostat on the system? If so, make sure it is programmed for Steam at 1 or 2 cycles per hour. They come from the factory with a default for forced air at 5 cycles per hour and that is too short of a heating cycle for all the radiators to get steam.
Also, you may want to clock your gas meter and make sure the boiler is getting the gas it should. We have several cases each winter where the gas flow/pressure is so low that the boiler fires well under it rated output and the lesser steam flow goes where it is easiest to get to.

Bgaspard

@ gfrbrookline_ You are probably right. I was just reading an article about how over-venting can cause imbalance especially in one-pipe system. I'm going to give it a try, and let you know how it went.

SteamingatMohawk

Do all the second floor radiators come off the same supply? Are the radiator vents at the top or middle? They belong at the middle. Sorry if either of these have already been answered.

Bgaspard

@ SteamingMohawk_ I was looking at the main lines, and it appears that each radiator is fed directly and its one riser from the two main lines in the basement. You can verify that from the last pictures I posted. One can see the risers shooting directly from the main lines.

Fred

@Bgaspard , I'm trying to understand what you are saying and the last pictures you posted aren't very good. Are you saying that all of your second floor radiators are fed off of one riser? If so, what size is that riser? It may well be that that riser isn't large enough to feed steam to multiple radiators. A 1.25 pipe can typically support about 55 EDR and still allow enough room for return condensate. Please clarify if I'm understanding what you are saying, the diameter of the riser and also, if this has always been a problem or something that recently happened.

gfrbrookline

@Fred based on all of the pictures I am guessing what he means is each floor has its own set of risers off the main.

If that is the case in additions to slowing down the 2nd floor venting you may benefit from venting the risers going to the 3rd floor. To do this you can either tap the supply side of the 3rd floor radiators and reusing the C's on them or tap the risers leading to the 3rd floor just below the 2nd floor ceiling and putting the C's there, D's would be better but since you have the C's I would try them first.

Bgaspard

Hey guys,
I was not too clear on my last post. What I intended to say is that it appears each radiator is fed by its own riser coming from the main pipe in the basement. These pipes seem to be the same size, about 1.25 inch ( see pics). Furthermore, I have a 3” pipe coming from the boiler, which is split in two. One goes to the left and the other to the right. I suppose I can conclude I have two main lines running around the basement perimeter ( see attached pic for clarity) where in the risers are connected and take the steam straight to the radiators.

Bgaspard

@gfrbrookline- I wonder if these risers (i.e. 2nd and 3rd floors are already vented since the pipes are hurries in the walls. I know where the pipes run as I can feel warmer spots touching the wall l, but Wish I could use some sort of imaging camera last that could provide a pic of what’s inside

Fred

@Bgaspard , given each radiator is piped directly off of the main, I would not worry about trying to vent the risers. I mean they are 1.25" pipes that run about 10 ft. up the wall to the radiators. That's no different than a typical first floor horizontal run and not that much air. The radiator vents can handle that.
I'm back to asking some basic questions:
- Are you sure the thermostat, if programmable, is programmed for 1 cycle per hour? If it is programmed at factory default, it is programmed at 5 cycles per hour for forced air. Boiler won't run long enough to get steam everywhere.
- Have you clocked the gas meter to make sure the gas supply/pressure are what they should be? We have seen many cases here where the line into the house from the utility company is clogged or the regulator has failed. You can clock the meter yourself, with all other gas appliances/pilots turned off or you can have your utility company come out and check it for you.
- That is a good sized boiler. Are you sure someone didn't down fire the boiler, maybe too much or that it doesn't have a two stage gas valve installed on it but is only wired to run on low fire?

I'm beginning to think, assuming you have good main venting, that the question may be: Are you producing enough steam? and not: Is the distribution/movement of the steam somehow encumbered?

Bgaspard

@Fred- thanks for the wisdom. I will look into these suggestions, and inform you on any progress.