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Football field snow melt system

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Leonard
Leonard Member Posts: 903
Just heard on TV about today's game at football field in Kansas. They have a heated underground snow melt system, guess so field will drain and not freeze. WOW, wonder what the fuel GPH on that square footage is.

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  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,883
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    One 30 sec commercial pretty much covers it!
    Rich_49sunlight33
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,324
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    President
    HeatingHelp.com

    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Always changing the game, and the rules. All those players from days past that played on frozen ground with -15 with out wind chill.

    This is football

    https://youtu.be/vGjg7j-qTvw
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,251
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    they put radiant heat systems under ice arenas also to keep the ground from freezing and heaving the rink. Heating and cooling at the same time! Under freezer warehouses also for the same reason.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Zman
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited January 2019
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    Lambeau field actually had electric coiled blankets used in 67.
    DZoro
  • DZoro
    DZoro Member Posts: 1,048
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    Green Bay had Wirsbo. Installed I believe in the early 90's . I don't remember what boilers, but manifolds at each end zone
    D
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2019
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    Tenant here in southern NH poured a outside slab touching building and installed a pair of ~ 10x15 walkin coolers. Coolers and freezer have run continuously for 5 years . Do you think I might run into ground freezing problems?

    Not sure how deep foundation on building is.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,251
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    The ones I have been involved with were freezer facilities that run well below 0F. Lots of heavy forklift traffic which also drives down the frost levels.
    -20F in typical facilities as low as -30 in blast freezers.

    I suppose soil type and moisture content come into play. Vapor barriers, properly installed help prevent humid air from condensing in the under slab insulation.

    Hard to predict what could happen without some engineering :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Yes @hot rod_7 I work on a few of those as well. Ammonia mostly too! Typically we use condenser heat circulated in those loops. In arenas we chill the floor to a typical 15F and then a foot or two below warm to 40F to keep permafrost out so the ice can be quickly removed when warranted.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2019
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    Ground under cooler cement slab is clay, dug down first , laid ~ 1 ft gravel over it for drainage/ support. One walkin cooler is ~ 35 degs, other is 0 or -10 maybe.

    Doesn't matter much it's done and he's paying the rent. Just wondering what I'm in for. And what if should do anything special as far as warming it up when he leaves. I'm guessing nothing special.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,251
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    hard to predict if you could have issues. Commercial, low temperature freezers have radiant or some forced air to move humidity and lessen the heave potential

    Sounds like not much to be done now. Gravel drainage will help if any trapped water can drain away. The moisture combined with temperature is the condition to avoid
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2019
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    Wasn't an expensive install , he poured thick slab ~ 8 +inch with no internal heating. Had his guys errected and bolted together 4 inch foam walls with aluminum skins, DIY. Had HVAC guy install fan evaporators , condensor, pump and tubing

    Interesting thing is steel Carriage bolts go thru roof panel to hold up evaporator assembly. Not much ice outside on roof , but ~-4 inches thick ice over bolt heads, heat entry point.
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 512
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    Bunch a wusses, have played football and Rugby in snow, rain, sleet and hail.................... those were the days.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,251
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    Leonard said:

    Wasn't an expensive install , he poured thick slab ~ 8 +inch with no internal heating. Had his guys errected and bolted together 4 inch foam walls with aluminum skins, DIY. Had HVAC guy install fan evaporators , condensor, pump and tubing

    Interesting thing is steel Carriage bolts go thru roof panel to hold up evaporator assembly. Not much ice outside on roof , but ~-4 inches thick ice over bolt heads, heat entry point.

    Thermal conductors. The early steel stud homes I worked on would conduct temperature like that. not quite ice, but not a viable construction detail.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 4,883
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    Walk In Coolers no protection needed.............
    Freezers need protection
    Several ways of doing it depending on environment and job.
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
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    what's the protection?
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Most I've seen had slab completely isolated with bluebeard. Exposed blueboard where it was placed vertically in the slab before the pour. I'd think 2" minimum, 4" better! It's expensive to cool stuff down
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2019
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    Blue board = styrofoam-ish or drywall ??
    Guessing styrofoam?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,251
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    Leonard said:

    what's the protection?

    I’d guess any method to prevent the frost level driving down under the slab. Lots of forces involved in ground movement.

    Heating and maintaining ground temperature above freezing with radiant, or some air movement options to accomplish the same result.

    Heatway chased this market and published some guidelines and design criteria. It was in a late 1990s maybe? design manual I have on my shelf. I visited and did some work on one system in Springfield, MO.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream