water spraying out of steam radiator

Tom_G

I'm in MA and was part of the Columbia Gas debacle this fall. My plumber installed a new Slant/Fin boiler, and I've had the same issue for months, despite tons of attempts to fix it.

PROBLEM:

If I need to go up 3 or 4 degrees, and the boiler is running for > 25 minutes, I start getting water sloshing around in the radiator in my upstairs bedroom. 1.5 minutes after the sloshing starts, it starts spraying water. Additionally, the water level in the glass tube goes way down and has often kicked in the low water turnoff.

ATTEMPTS TO FIX:

My plumber has:

• replaced the steam valve on the radiator
  
• increased and decreased pressure
  
• flushed the system multiple times
  
• put a product called Squick in the boiler
  
• installed a vent on pipe return for the condensate
  
• spoken with Slant/Fin support and repiped the thing in order to make sure it met Slant/Fin's requirements.
  

I'm now stuck with a boiler that will spray water if it needs to be on for > 25 minutes (or more than 2 degrees increase). This means that I have to keep my heat warmer at night and colder during the day to keep it from jumping up. My 25 year old boiler that was previously there would easily handle jumping from 59 degrees at night to 64 or 65 in the morning. It never sprayed water.

Note: While the upstairs bedroom radiator is the only one spraying water, there are 2 other radiators that get loud and sound like water is in there.

My plumber is now trying to figure out where to go next. Any suggestions? Thanks.

JohnNY

Post a picture of the entire boiler and piping above it please.

Tom_G

(Thanks JohnNY. I will post photos in a few hours when I get home.)

Jamie Hall

And while you are taking pictures... figure out a way to get the Squick out of the boiler. That's not helping one little bit. Also make sure the cutout pressure is no more than 1.7 to 2 psi.

KC_Jones

Do you know how the new boiler was sized? They need to measure all the radiators and go from that.

Tom_G

KC_Jones said:

Do you know how the new boiler was sized? They need to measure all the radiators and go from that.

I don't believe he measured anything. He took what was there and bumped it up slightly to make sure there was enough power to handle everything. The proposal was for a 150,000 BTU boiler.

It's a 1,950 square foot house built in 1923 with 8 radiators.

(Note that there is also a single-room addition built in the 1990s that has a strip of hot water heat (not steam). While this is tapped into this boiler, it doesn't appear to be a factor here, because he hooked that up much later into the process, while these struggles had already been going on.)

ethicalpaul

> He took what was there and bumped it up slightly

KC_Jones

Tom_G said:

KC_Jones said:

Do you know how the new boiler was sized? They need to measure all the radiators and go from that.

I don't believe he measured anything. He took what was there and bumped it up slightly to make sure there was enough power to handle everything. The proposal was for a 150,000 BTU boiler.

It's a 1,950 square foot house built in 1923 with 8 radiators.

(Note that there is also a single-room addition built in the 1990s that has a strip of hot water heat (not steam). While this is tapped into this boiler, it doesn't appear to be a factor here, because he hooked that up much later into the process, while these struggles had already been going on.)

Yeah that's not how it's done. If it's over sized that can contribute to operating problems, and if he specifically said he bumped it up from the old, well that is an absence of logic entirely.

Also the comment about increasing pressure shows a lack of knowledge as well. Do you know what the pressuretrol is set to now? If not take a picture of that when you are taking your pictures. The outside setting and the setting on the white wheel inside the cover.

Tom_G

Thanks. I'll be sure to get plenty of photos later. I did take this blurry photo last night, however....

Jamie Hall

Is that copper pipe I'm seeing?

STEAM DOCTOR

> @Jamie Hall said:
> Is that copper pipe I'm seeing?

I guess we can come back in 25 years and see how the propress holds up

Fred

Do the simplest thing first that will probably fix the situation. Skim the boiler then drain it and refill it. New boilers have a lot of oils in them from the manufacturing process and that oil needs to be removed after a few weeks of operation. It will cause the boiler to do strange things, including several of the ones you describe. Just draining the boiler won't remove the oils, they cling to the sides of the boiler while the water is draining. Remove the Squick. That stuff creates more problems than it fixes (if it fixes anything)

Tom_G

Fred said:

Skim the boiler then drain it and refill it. New boilers have a lot of oils in them from the manufacturing process and that oil needs to be removed after a few weeks of operation.

Stupid question, but is skimming the boiler different than "flushing it"? The boiler was installed on 10/25, and he came a few times to "flush it out". Plus, I would try draining as much as I could and refilling it when I could. Eventually, that oily smell (and deposits in the glass tube) disappeared. But the problem persisted.

Re: questions about copper - Is that bad? Should it be something else?

Fred

Skimming is different. Draining a boiler will allow the oil to cling to the sides of the boiler block and when you re-fill the boiler, the oils just lift off of the sides and float on top again. You should have a skim port that is above the boiler water line. From there, you raise the water level so that the water starts to trickle out of the skim port and you let it trickle, very slowly for several hours so as to not create any turbulence on the surface of the water in the boiler. That will allow the oils to be "Skimmed" off.

We need to see pictures of the boiler and the piping around it to see if the installed put a skim port on and to also determine how well or how poorly he installed the boiler.
Copper should be avoided on any piping above the boiler water line. It can be used on any returns below the boiler water line. Black threaded iron pipe is the current best practice, above the water line.

Post some pictures and include the front of the Pressuretrol so we can see what he set that to. I'm sure skimming will help your situation but, depending on the installation, I can't say it will fix everything.

Tom_G

I don't know what angles/details are important, so I'll start with these....

Tom_G

Fred

The Copper riser and header above the boiler seems to be configured properly. The issue with copper above the boiler water line is the expansion and contraction. That will eventually cause the solder joints to weaken and possibly leak. May take a few years, may never happen but it is a concern.
- I see the Pressuretrol may be set high (hard to see). Turn the screw on the top to turn the "Cut-In" down to .5. Do not go below the .5 mark or the screw may drop off of the internal linkage. Once you do that, take the cover off of the Pressuretrol (screw on front/bottom/center and lift the cover off. There is a white wheel inside. Turn that to "1" with the "1" facing the front of the unit.
- I see the Hartford loop is 6" to 8" long. That actually should be a close nipple to avoid any possible water hammer at that location.
- Finally, I don't see a Skim Port on the front of the unit. Take a picture all the way around the boiler. Do you see a Plug or cap or valve anywhere around the cabinet, above the boiler water line? If not, one needs to be installed. I know some models of the Slant Finn have a High Pressure Skim trough. Check your owner's manual and see if yours is equipped with that feature.
- Get rid of that bottle of Squick! Please

Fred

@Tom_G , It also seems to me that the water level in the boiler sight glass is high. Make sure it is not too high allowing water to be pushed up into the header/main creating wet steam. Check you owner's manual and set the water level to the Manufacturer's specification, usually measured in inches above the floor (or bottom of the boiler).

KC_Jones

What size is that copper? Take a measurement of the outside diameter if you are unsure.

Tom_G

Fred said:

Finally, I don't see a Skim Port on the front of the unit. Take a picture all the way around the boiler. Do you see a Plug or cap or valve anywhere around the cabinet, above the boiler water line? If not, one needs to be installed. I know some models of the Slant Finn have a High Pressure Skim trough. Check your owner's manual and see if yours is equipped with that feature.

From what I can tell, he tapped into what probably was the skim port to hook up my hot water addition.

Tom_G

KC_Jones said:

What size is that copper? Take a measurement of the outside diameter if you are unsure.

Three different widths in that maze. 2", 1.5" and .7

Tom_G

Fred said:

@Tom_G , It also seems to me that the water level in the boiler sight glass is high. Make sure it is not too high allowing water to be pushed up into the header/main creating wet steam. Check you owner's manual and set the water level to the Manufacturer's specification, usually measured in inches above the floor (or bottom of the boiler).

We've been playing with the water level a ton. Two days ago, my plumber raised the water level really high to avoid the low-water cutoff that's been happening during the incidents.

Fred

Tom_G said:

Fred said:

@Tom_G , It also seems to me that the water level in the boiler sight glass is high. Make sure it is not too high allowing water to be pushed up into the header/main creating wet steam. Check you owner's manual and set the water level to the Manufacturer's specification, usually measured in inches above the floor (or bottom of the boiler).

We've been playing with the water level a ton. Two days ago, my plumber raised the water level really high to avoid the low-water cutoff that's been happening during the incidents.

Is the LWCO in the right tapping? Raising the water level high will throw water into the header, causing wet steam. I think the problem with the LWCO kicking in is because the boiler needs to be skimmed. When there is oil on the surface of the water, the steam bubbles can't break through that oil and it pushes the water back into the wet return, creating what looks like a low water condition. As soon as the boiler shuts down, the water runs back into the boiler.

KC_Jones

If it’s 2” it’s still not right, the slant fin manual clearly states 2 1/2” piping.

Too small of piping will increase velocity and carry over into system, that and the boiler most likely being oversized aren’t helping things at all.

It also shows the close nipple on the Hartford loop. And as stated black pipe is what is proper for steam.

Tom_G

Fred said:

I think the problem with the LWCO kicking in is because the boiler needs to be skimmed. When there is oil on the surface of the water, the steam bubbles can't break through that oil and it pushes the water back into the wet return, creating what looks like a low water condition. As soon as the boiler shuts down, the water runs back into the boiler.

The strange thing is that the LWCO only happens when the regular tube water level is where it's supposed to be, and only after 25 minutes of the heat running. That's when the water starts collecting and sloshing in the upstairs radiator.

Is it possible that my radiator is the problem? Should I entertain the idea of replacing it?

Note: Columbia Gas almost blew up me and my family, so I was without heat (and hot water, stove, and dryer) for a long time. I was reimbursed from Columbia for all of the new appliances and boiler. But at this point, I can't believe I'm not back to "normal", and I've had heat since 10/25. This boiler is running my life.

Steamhead

KC_Jones said:

If it’s 2” it’s still not right, the slant fin manual clearly states 2 1/2” piping.



Too small of piping will increase velocity and carry over into system, that and the boiler most likely being oversized aren’t helping things at all.



It also shows the close nipple on the Hartford loop. And as stated black pipe is what is proper for steam.

This.

Fred

Tom_G said:

Fred said:

I think the problem with the LWCO kicking in is because the boiler needs to be skimmed. When there is oil on the surface of the water, the steam bubbles can't break through that oil and it pushes the water back into the wet return, creating what looks like a low water condition. As soon as the boiler shuts down, the water runs back into the boiler.

The strange thing is that the LWCO only happens when the regular tube water level is where it's supposed to be, and only after 25 minutes of the heat running. That's when the water starts collecting and sloshing in the upstairs radiator.

Is it possible that my radiator is the problem? Should I entertain the idea of replacing it?

Note: Columbia Gas almost blew up me and my family, so I was without heat (and hot water, stove, and dryer) for a long time. I was reimbursed from Columbia for all of the new appliances and boiler. But at this point, I can't believe I'm not back to "normal", and I've had heat since 10/25. This boiler is running my life.

The problem is not the radiator, unless it is pitched the wrong way, in which case you can pitch it properly. If the LWCO only comes on when you hear water sloshing in the radiator, then the water level in the boiler must be low enough to kick the LWCO into action. Are both valves (red ones) at the top and bottom of the Sight glass fully open? It may appear that the water level is OK but if they are closed, the sight glass won't show the actual water level in the boiler. What is the size of the feed pipe to that radiator? was anything changed there? Re-reading your original post and seeing that multiple radiators are getting water, velocity due to the size of the header as KC and Steamhead mentions may be the problem. Newer boilers have a lot less water capacity so pushing much of it out into the system is not a good thing. At the end of a heating cycle, is the water level in the boiler over its normal level? Adding water and returning water should cause an over fill situation.

BobC

I agree the boiler should be drained a few times to get rid of the squick and it should be skimmed as well.

Put a level on all the radiators and make sure they have a slight pitch back towards the incoming steam pipe (I assume this os a one pipe system?). Any water has to be able to get back to the boiler.

Again use a level on the steam main and make sure it has some pitch back towards the boiler. If that steam main was raised during the install the pipe may be pitched the wrong way now. Any condensed water has to find it's way back to the boiler.What kind of main vent is being used in the basement and what kind of radiator vents are being used? Steam systems should operate at low pressure (no more than 2psi and hopefully lower), the steam mains should be vented quickly and the radiators slowly.

Bob

neilc

Are we sure the rad valves are fully open ?
they should be.
and that rads are pitched back to rad valve to drain?
and I am assuming 1 pipe rads, correct?

Tom_G

Thanks everyone. I think the issue might be almost resolved.

Today, the plumber skimmed the boiler again and discovered that the problem radiator upstairs (with the water spitting out) wasn't completely open. 3 others in the house also were apparently partially closed.

Since I have been home, I have tried to jump up 4 or 5 degrees to see how it works. While there was no water spraying out of the problem radiator, there is one question I have. The boiler appears to be turning itself off (not a low water situation) and then turning itself back on. I think it might have something to do with the pressure (?).

Is this normal? Should a steam boiler turn itself on and off a couple of times in an attempt to increase 5 degrees?

Fred

@Tom_G , yes, that is the Pressuretrol keeping the system pressure within the set range. The boiler is most likely over sized for the connected radiation so the boiler is making more steam that the radiators and piping can condense. That causes the pressure to rise. The one thing you want to avoid is set-backs on the thermostat. That causes the boiler to run longer to bring the house up to temp and that longer run will certainly mean the boiler will build pressure. Set the temp to what is comfortable and leave it there. Never more that maybe a 2 degree set-back.

Jamie Hall

"Is this normal? Should a steam boiler turn itself on and off a couple of times in an attempt to increase 5 degrees? "

It would be a lot more surprising if it didn't. Almost all steam boiler installations produce at least slightly more steam than the radiators can condense. Therefore, they are equipped with a pressuretrol (usually -- there are other devices which do the same thing) which senses the pressure rise when the boiler gets ahead of the radiators and turns the boiler off until the radiators can catch up.

If yours is plain vanilla, that pressure control will be a "pressuretrol" and be up front where you can see it. Different models of pressuretrol are adjusted differently, but it should be set so that the cutin pressure is around 0.7 psi and the cutout around 1.7 psi. If you post a picture of it, we can advise as to how to adjust it.