Two stage gas valve

cynthia07104

I’m getting a two stage gas valve installed on my boiler shortly and was wondering if there was anything else I should do or change at the same time. I’m sure the company coming out will have a laundry list of things to do but as with anything they I’m sure they see $ signs vs necessity.

I have already had a rep call and ask if they could clean my 1 year old boiler at a pretty hefty price a service I have declined as of now. Since you guys are so knowledgeable and have been so helpful thus far I wanted to get some input on what should be done in addition to replacing the gas valve.

Tinman

Combustion analysis at low and high fire would be a start but they may have included that in their bid.

Tim McElwain

Why is the valve being changed? Is the existing valve two stage? This is a one year old boiler is it a high efficiency boiler? What is the make and model?

cynthia07104

@Tim McElwain It is being changed due to it being oversized and short cycling causing the farthest radiator in the home to only heat up 1/4 of the way. Currently the boiler is as it came from factory with a single stage burner. This was the recommended fix by the company we called out to fix the problem. It is a Williamson boiler.

Tim McElwain

So apparently no one did an EDR measurement on the radiators or any kind of a heat loss. I am not sure if going to a two stage valve is going to solve your problem. What is the Make and Model of the valve on the system now? What does the rating plate on the boiler have for input and output?

The boiler is 1 year old what was the previous boiler?

Dave0176

@cynthia07104 All I can say is, ask the contractor what his plans are. I’m currently doing a job in Nutley with the same situation, brand new Williamson 250,000 BTU boiler, that boiler puts out 654 sq ft of steam, I measured radiation at 432 q ft so yes the only way to help this issue is a two stage valve with a vaporstat to keep pressure low.

As far as other things to do, when I looked at the boiler the installing contractor did not install a skim tappping, meaning the boiler was never skimmed of it’s assembly oils, this causes a very unstable water line, it's even in the installation manual that the boiler should skimmed and thoroughly cleaned. I also offered to do a water seal on the pressuretrol and vaporstat to get rid of the troublesome pigtail that always clogs, when they clog you lose the pressuretrols ability to control steam pressure, it’s not necessary however it’s always good to have imo.

Fred

@Tim McElwain , the boiler is over-sized and, if I recall correctly from her original post, she had the option of a single stage or two stage gas valve on this model boiler and chose the single stage valve. It would have been better had the boiler been properly sized but it is what it is at this point and the boiler currently short cycles a lot.
@cynthia07104 , I would suggest you look at your main vents and determine if they are adequate and working. While they are on site, it would be good to know the main venting is optimal. Depending on the length/diameter of those Mains, you may even want to order the Barnes and Jones Big Mouth vents for each main. The installer may try and tell you they are Traps but, make him aware they are Traps that Barnes and jones re-designed to serve as main vents.

Dave0176

@Fred I just realized I am the contractor that’s doing the valve install.

I also did recommend removing and installing the proper size boiler.

Dave0176

@Fred as far as the main vents, the installing contractor installed steam traps for main vents, I did bring to their attention that they shouldn’t be used as their not designed for this task and to replace with the B&J Big Mouth.

Fred

@cynthia07104 , you are in EXCELLENT hands with @Dave0176 ! He's got this covered!

cynthia07104

@Dave0176 For clarification Yes you are coming this week but you did not do the initial install. Can’t have this mess up on your name. We did get those Big Mouths as per your previous recommendations.

This board has been a true lifesaver with the knowledge provided so I can seem like I know what I’m talking about to the man of the house.

Fred

cynthia07104 said:

@Dave0176 For clarification Yes you are coming this week but you did not do the initial install. Can’t have this mess up on your name. We did get those Big Mouths as per your previous recommendations.



This board has been a true lifesaver with the knowledge provided so I can seem like I know what I’m talking about to the man of the house.

Yes, we (at least I) understood that Dave0176 said "the Installing contractor" so I knew it wasn't Dave. I would have known that anyway!

cynthia07104

@Tim McElwain we previously had a 150btu boiler which we now know was appropriately sized for our new sq footage. A little too late as we got suckered into installing this 250btu monster. We had @Dave0176 come by to try to rectify our problems and based upon his calculations and our options we decided the two stage valve would be our most economic fix.

Fred

cynthia07104 said:

@Fred the coming contractor did recommend the Big Mouths which we have since then replaced. Would anything else come to mind as to changes that go hand in hand with changing to a two stage valve??

I'm sure Dave will do the combustion testing. The only other thing that you may want to look at is if all the radiator vents are working and balanced and if the radiators are properly pitched. If you hear any banging/water hammer anywhere along the mains, you might want to have that checked for pitch. I can't think of anything else. I'm sure, with the two stage gas valve he will already be installing Vaporstat(s). That will be great too. I don't want to get Dave into what should be a a few hour job that turns into a career as I'm sure he is really busy, this time of year.

Dave0176

Here is the pics of the current boiler and yes @cynthia07104 your husband had told me that just a year prior to you guys purchasing the home the previous owners had a new Williamson 150,000 Btu boiler installed at the end of the season and never even used the boiler. Then the contractor told you guys it was too small lol, and installed this beast. Unbelievable like @Steamhead says you can’t fix stupid.

cynthia07104

Thanks @Fred Yes Dave is getting all that done so good to know I wont be hearing a laundry list of “things I should” do. I’m confident now I’m in good hands.

This is why I LOVE this site.

Fred

Oh my gosh @Dave0176 and @cynthia07104 , are you going to fix that header too to put the proper swing joints in?

Dave0176

Fred said:

Oh my gosh @Dave0176 and @cynthia07104 , are you going to fix that header too to put the proper swing joints in?

I don’t think they want to do it this winter, but possibly before next??

cynthia07104

@Fred that’s on our next to do. Had no idea it was wrong until I started posting on this site and @Dave0176 confirmed as soon as he saw it. Hopefully we can get it all done before the next heating season. As you can see we have quite a mess going on here and this was a complete home renovation (prior company took us for a bunch of fools) 🤦🏻‍♀️.

Fred

cynthia07104 said:

@Fred that’s on our next to do. Had no idea it was wrong until I started posting on this site and @Dave0176 confirmed as soon as he saw it. Hopefully we can get it all done before the next heating season. As you can see we have quite a mess going on here and this was a complete home renovation (prior company took us for a bunch of fools) 🤦🏻‍♀️.

Do have that done before next heating season. The way it is now, without swing joints, that header will expand and contract and apply stress on the boiler sections. Not a good thing and will almost certainly cause early boiler failure.

JUGHNE

Hopefully we hear feed back on this.
For instance how long it runs on high before stepping down.
IIRC the 2 stage low is 60% of full fire?...about the actual connected EDR.

STEAM DOCTOR

@cynthia07104 you are in very good hands. The one thing to consider is whether the investment is worthwhile. You'll need to repipe that boiler. You will need to add a 2 stage gas valve and a vaporstat. What happens if you need service and Dave is not around. Most technicians out there would be lost the first second they walk in to your Boiler Room. An oversized boilers with a two-stage gas valve is not as ideal as a properly sized boiler. Just some food for thought

cynthia07104

@STEAM DOCTOR I agree the ideal situation would have been to change out the boiler but I just don’t have the means to get it done right now as I had the whole house repipped and the new boiler installed only 1 year ago. I only had wished I knew about this site prior to hiring a company. You live and you learn. Good point about Dave not being available in that case I guess the fireplaces will get some good use. We have already learned that not everyone claiming they KNOW how to work with boilers actually do.

cynthia07104

@JUGHNE I will try to post that info once Dave gets it done.

Tinman

@Dave0176 - You’re killing me, Smalls. 😂

cynthia07104

@JUGHNE Yes the stage 2 is 60% of full fire. It has made a huge difference in our situation where the boiler was extremely oversized. Our coldest room is now 9.5 degrees warmer throwing it off only 4 degrees compared to the rest of the house. Currently it runs on high for 15 minutes then goes down to low flame. I’m not entirely sure how it knows when to step down into low flame. Any input would be appreciated.

apraetor

Doesn't the return need to be below the water line in a hartford loop? Otherwise there's no equalizer. That one appears to be at or above the line. My boiler had the same problem when I bought my house.

Fred

@cynthia07104 , it knows when to step down based on pressure. @Dave0176 also installed a Vaporstat and has it set so that when the system pressure gets to a certain pressure (in ounces) it steps down to low fire.

Glad it's working out. Sounds like the temp difference in the coldest room can likely be addressed with a little faster radiator vent.

cynthia07104

@apraetor yea our Hartford loop is wrong it was placed too high 🤦🏻‍♀️ when it was installed.

cynthia07104

@Fred we have a D on that radiator now.. @Dave0176 said the next one to try would be a Varivalve.. we have a lot going on in that room though. 1 it’s the farthest radiator from the boiler.. 2 it’s on top of the garage... 3 it has cathedral ceilings... and 4 the room is 22x22 I’m sure those things contribute to the room being colder in general or maybe not? I think we might add a few Rads in places throughout the house and the basement to increase our EDR.

Fred

Wow @cynthia07104 , you do have a lot going on in that room, all of which contribute to the 4 degree difference. Do you know what the EDR of the radiator is? It just might not be large enough to heat that room???

cynthia07104

@Fred here’s the radiator in question.

gfrbrookline

What about venting the riser that feeds that radiator?

gfrbrookline

Does the radiator heat top to bottom? I have sunrad's in my bathrooms and found the only way to get them to heat through was to slow the venting way down. They still don't give off a ton of heat compared to a free standing radiator.

cynthia07104

@gfrbrookline We will try that next. I was lurking on this site last night and read if the radiator doesn’t heat completely across or completely height wise it might mean the venting is too fast? It’s my understanding venting on the radiators should be nice and slow which is the opposite as venting the mains which should be nice and fast, correct me if I’m wrong.. This radiator’s top half warms completely and only 1/4 of the bottom. I’m thinking our vent might be too BIG?

cynthia07104

@gfrbrookline after checking all of our radiators I have 4 that heat completely and go figure they are the ones with the smallest vents in the whole house. I’m sending hubby to get some new vents of course he thinks I’m a little crazy he’s more of a if it works leave it alone type of person. I’m more of a I want it to work 100% type of person.

mikeg2015

Yes, radiators can be vented too fast and cause what your seeing. Fast vents are ok for systems that run at higher pressures. Vapor systems under 0.5psi need slower vents.

I’m about ready to put a 115 yo Hoffman 2 back on a big wall radiator that heats too fast even with a Maid o mist 4.

gfrbrookline

@cynthia07104 I would put a Ventrite No.1 adjustable vent on it so you can fine tune the venting.

Fred

Hi @cynthia07104 , Vents are typically adjusted/balanced toi get steam where you want it. Some will be vented faster than others. None should be vented so fast as to allow the steam to race across the radiator, top or bottom and close the vent before all the air has been evacuated. In your case, and I can barely see through the bottom grate in that radiator, it looks like the vent is on the same side as the supply pipe. That's probably your problem or at least one of the problems. Being on the same side as the supply, steam will most definitely close the vent before it can do its job. If I am seeing correctly, the vent needs to be moved to the other end of the radiator and a plug put into the current opening. That will help a lot but until we can measure the EDR of that radiator, we don't know if it is enough to heat that large space, with high ceilings.

gfrbrookline

@cynthia07104, If what @Fred said is true about the vent being on the same side as the supply valve I totally agree with him. A plumber can easily plug the old vent opening and tap a new one on the other side.

Based on 18 sections and assuming it's 23" high the radiator edr should be 61, 3.4 per section.

Fred

@gfrbrookline , I think you mean 61 EDR for the total radiator?