Another Cob Job - Fixed
When I got there, I also found this mess:
Flux was literally dripping off of the piping and wiring. A bypass on a mod/con. No p/s piping as required. An 014 circ pumping the boiler, upstairs monoflo loop and downstairs direct return. The radiation (which the same company installed 30 years ago) was 60k btus, but they installed a 230k btu Ultra! The condensate was pumped through the wall into a bucket where the HO had to empty it almost daily.
After evaluating everything, including fixing the piping, properly installing circulators, re-routing the exhaust and installing an intake, and the fact that the boiler was 4 X the correct size, they saw the wisdom in replacing the boiler along with fixing everything else.
To top it all off, they charged them almost twice as much as what I did to fix their mess and install a properly sized UFT 080.
Here's the final product:
Not picture perfect, but done right and working great with their CI rad's.
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
Comments
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Great install! I bet the homeowners really appreciate having better system and regaining the usability of their basement. Would you mind helping a noob homeowner like myself understand what you built by answering a few questions?
1. Did you install an outdoor temperature sensor? Is there much to be gained running lower water temps and modulating the boiler if it’s attached to older heat emitters (I assume if they have a monoflo loop) that don’t give off much heat at lower temps.
2. Are you worried about using PCV over CPVC for the vent pipe? I keep hearing contradicting opinions over the use of PVC vent pipe on a mod con boiler.
3. What did you build with black pipe on the top where the t/p relief valve is? Is this where your fill valves are? I feel like you built something really smart, but I can’t quite see what I’m looking at.
Please don’t interpret my questions as criticism of your install. I’m just trying to learn more about radiant heat as I’m going to be reevaluating my heating system in the next year or so.
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For number 3 it basically adds an air bleeder where the pressure relief valve is so you can remove the air easier. But you need the elbow to keep the valve vertical0
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1. Of course. There's little benefit to installing a mod/con if the ODR is not functional. The lower the water temp, the more efficient the boiler is. Yes, heat emitters give off less heat as the SWT is lowered, but the house requires less heat as the ODT rises. You only need the highest SWT on the coldest night of the year (design temp).cheights said:Great install! I bet the homeowners really appreciate having better system and regaining the usability of their basement. Would you mind helping a noob homeowner like myself understand what you built by answering a few questions?
1. Did you install an outdoor temperature sensor? Is there much to be gained running lower water temps and modulating the boiler if it’s attached to older heat emitters (I assume if they have a monoflo loop) that don’t give off much heat at lower temps.
2. Are you worried about using PCV over CPVC for the vent pipe? I keep hearing contradicting opinions over the use of PVC vent pipe on a mod con boiler.
3. What did you build with black pipe on the top where the t/p relief valve is? Is this where your fill valves are? I feel like you built something really smart, but I can’t quite see what I’m looking at.
Please don’t interpret my questions as criticism of your install. I’m just trying to learn more about radiant heat as I’m going to be reevaluating my heating system in the next year or so.
2. No, with CI rad's, the RWT won't go above 140* and that's what drives the flue temp. And with ODR, it won't see that more than 3% of the time.
3. It's just connecting the expansion tank and fill line with a vent on top. This makes the boiler the PONPC and the circs are pumping away from it.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
I think PVC will be going away for venting. I live in MA which is very restrictive.
The state plumbing board is "reviewing" this....they have been doing this for months. They also said PVC is ok at low rwt but there is nothing to prevent service techs and homeowners who don't understand this from raising the operating temperature.
As of now we still follow the equipment mfg requirements.1 -
That's the Issue....EBEBRATT-Ed said:
As of now we still follow the equipment mfg requirements.
The PVC is rated up to 140°0 -
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@Ironman Thanks for the explanation!Ironman said:
1. Of course. There's little benefit to installing a mod/con if the ODR is not functional. The lower the water temp, the more efficient the boiler is. Yes, heat emitters give off less heat as the SWT is lowered, but the house requires less heat as the ODT rises. You only need the highest SWT on the coldest night of the year (design temp).
2. No, with CI rad's, the RWT won't go above 140* and that's what drives the flue temp. And with ODR, it won't see that more than 3% of the time.
3. It's just connecting the expansion tank and fill line with a vent on top. This makes the boiler the PONPC and the circs are pumping away from it.0 -
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Bob I saw your steam piping piece on the supply house com site Great job!-1
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PVC rating of 140F is due to a pressure rating of 75PSI. It is in the standards of SCH 40 PVC. BTW, ABS has a softening point of 217F which is better than PVC. It has a lower expansion than PVC or CPVC.0
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One inspector here sees 140* that’s all he sees.0
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Hi Bob,
No primary/secondary required on the UFT boilers I'm guessing. Has that worked out in practice as far as flow rates and such?
Thanks,
Mark0 -
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Works fine with its fire tube HX as long as you follow proper design practices and keep the minimum flow above what the manufacturer requires.knotgrumpy said:Hi Bob,
No primary/secondary required on the UFT boilers I'm guessing. Has that worked out in practice as far as flow rates and such?
Thanks,
Mark
I'd do p/s if it had more than 2 zones, required multiple SWT's, was a radiant floor, etc.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
I have direct piped a couple of fire tube boilers. Both were on large single zone radiant slabs. I don't think the flue ever has been over 100F on either one! Very low temps and great temp rise through the boiler.Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!0
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Looks nice
Do you need install a dirt mag or LLH or someway to keep the goop out?0 -
It was all copper piping and virtually nothing but clean water came out when draining and flushing. There seems to have been no leaks in spite of the horrible installation of the ultra.
I'm going back after the new year and install a toe kick in the kitchen. I'll have to drain the upstairs loop again to do that and I'll make a decision about a dirt mag then.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0
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