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Another Cob Job - Fixed

Ironman
Ironman Member Posts: 6,323
edited December 2018 in THE MAIN WALL
The lady called me and asked if I could do something with the 4" PVC flue that was run in front of her cabinets when this W/M Ultra was installed a year ago.


When I got there, I also found this mess:



Flux was literally dripping off of the piping and wiring. A bypass on a mod/con. No p/s piping as required. An 014 circ pumping the boiler, upstairs monoflo loop and downstairs direct return. The radiation (which the same company installed 30 years ago) was 60k btus, but they installed a 230k btu Ultra! The condensate was pumped through the wall into a bucket where the HO had to empty it almost daily.

After evaluating everything, including fixing the piping, properly installing circulators, re-routing the exhaust and installing an intake, and the fact that the boiler was 4 X the correct size, they saw the wisdom in replacing the boiler along with fixing everything else.

To top it all off, they charged them almost twice as much as what I did to fix their mess and install a properly sized UFT 080. :/

Here's the final product:






Not picture perfect, but done right and working great with their CI rad's.


Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
kcopppecmsgDZororick in AlaskaHenrySuperTech

Comments

  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,823
    Not picture perfect? Looks pretty perfect to me!
    steve
    Ironman
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,540
    Those type of jobs are never easy. Probably take as much time planning as it does to do the actual work.

    Properly sized and properly installed. I am sure they are much better off.

    Nice job!!!!
    IronmanSuperTechdelta T
  • cheights
    cheights Member Posts: 2
    Great install! I bet the homeowners really appreciate having better system and regaining the usability of their basement. Would you mind helping a noob homeowner like myself understand what you built by answering a few questions?

    1. Did you install an outdoor temperature sensor? Is there much to be gained running lower water temps and modulating the boiler if it’s attached to older heat emitters (I assume if they have a monoflo loop) that don’t give off much heat at lower temps.
    2. Are you worried about using PCV over CPVC for the vent pipe? I keep hearing contradicting opinions over the use of PVC vent pipe on a mod con boiler.
    3. What did you build with black pipe on the top where the t/p relief valve is? Is this where your fill valves are? I feel like you built something really smart, but I can’t quite see what I’m looking at.

    Please don’t interpret my questions as criticism of your install. I’m just trying to learn more about radiant heat as I’m going to be reevaluating my heating system in the next year or so.
    Ironman
  • Tom_133
    Tom_133 Member Posts: 720
    What will the homeowner do with his/her free time now that there is no condensate bucket to swap out?

    Nice job!
    Tom
    Montpelier Vt
    Ironmandelta T
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,112
    Nice job Bob.
    Creative Solutions Plumbing & Heating LLC
    Lic #12683
    Co-Owners: Fred Drescher, Jr & Eliezer "Ezzy" Travis
    201.499.0223
    Ironman
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    For number 3 it basically adds an air bleeder where the pressure relief valve is so you can remove the air easier. But you need the elbow to keep the valve vertical
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,323
    edited December 2018
    cheights said:

    Great install! I bet the homeowners really appreciate having better system and regaining the usability of their basement. Would you mind helping a noob homeowner like myself understand what you built by answering a few questions?

    1. Did you install an outdoor temperature sensor? Is there much to be gained running lower water temps and modulating the boiler if it’s attached to older heat emitters (I assume if they have a monoflo loop) that don’t give off much heat at lower temps.
    2. Are you worried about using PCV over CPVC for the vent pipe? I keep hearing contradicting opinions over the use of PVC vent pipe on a mod con boiler.
    3. What did you build with black pipe on the top where the t/p relief valve is? Is this where your fill valves are? I feel like you built something really smart, but I can’t quite see what I’m looking at.

    Please don’t interpret my questions as criticism of your install. I’m just trying to learn more about radiant heat as I’m going to be reevaluating my heating system in the next year or so.

    1. Of course. There's little benefit to installing a mod/con if the ODR is not functional. The lower the water temp, the more efficient the boiler is. Yes, heat emitters give off less heat as the SWT is lowered, but the house requires less heat as the ODT rises. You only need the highest SWT on the coldest night of the year (design temp).

    2. No, with CI rad's, the RWT won't go above 140* and that's what drives the flue temp. And with ODR, it won't see that more than 3% of the time.

    3. It's just connecting the expansion tank and fill line with a vent on top. This makes the boiler the PONPC and the circs are pumping away from it.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    cheights
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,540
    I think PVC will be going away for venting. I live in MA which is very restrictive.

    The state plumbing board is "reviewing" this....they have been doing this for months. They also said PVC is ok at low rwt but there is nothing to prevent service techs and homeowners who don't understand this from raising the operating temperature.

    As of now we still follow the equipment mfg requirements.
    Ironman
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,892



    As of now we still follow the equipment mfg requirements.

    That's the Issue....

    The PVC is rated up to 140°
  • Nicely done!
    What a relief for the homeowner!!
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
    Ironman
  • cheights
    cheights Member Posts: 2
    edited December 2018
    Ironman said:



    1. Of course. There's little benefit to installing a mod/con if the ODR is not functional. The lower the water temp, the more efficient the boiler is. Yes, heat emitters give off less heat as the SWT is lowered, but the house requires less heat as the ODT rises. You only need the highest SWT on the coldest night of the year (design temp).

    2. No, with CI rad's, the RWT won't go above 140* and that's what drives the flue temp. And with ODR, it won't see that more than 3% of the time.

    3. It's just connecting the expansion tank and fill line with a vent on top. This makes the boiler the PONPC and the circs are pumping away from it.

    @Ironman Thanks for the explanation!
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,252
    Wow....cob job doesn't seem to even describe it! The vent, the condensate bucket, the flux, the endless adapters, grossly oversized boiler, etc!

    Nice job! Now you have a 230k spare boiler.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    IronmanDan Foley
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 3,991
    Bob I saw your steam piping piece on the supply house com site Great job!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
    Ironman
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 979
    PVC rating of 140F is due to a pressure rating of 75PSI. It is in the standards of SCH 40 PVC. BTW, ABS has a softening point of 217F which is better than PVC. It has a lower expansion than PVC or CPVC.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 1,892
    One inspector here sees 140* that’s all he sees.
  • knotgrumpy
    knotgrumpy Member Posts: 208
    Hi Bob,

    No primary/secondary required on the UFT boilers I'm guessing. Has that worked out in practice as far as flow rates and such?

    Thanks,

    Mark
  • Voyager
    Voyager Member Posts: 256
    I thought my soldering was ugly until I saw these pictures. I feel much better now.

    And your “solder” joints on the new install are pristine. LOL.
    Ironmandelta T
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,323

    Hi Bob,

    No primary/secondary required on the UFT boilers I'm guessing. Has that worked out in practice as far as flow rates and such?

    Thanks,

    Mark

    Works fine with its fire tube HX as long as you follow proper design practices and keep the minimum flow above what the manufacturer requires.

    I'd do p/s if it had more than 2 zones, required multiple SWT's, was a radiant floor, etc.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    knotgrumpy
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,252
    I have direct piped a couple of fire tube boilers. Both were on large single zone radiant slabs. I don't think the flue ever has been over 100F on either one! Very low temps and great temp rise through the boiler.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 3,991
    Looks nice

    Do you need install a dirt mag or LLH or someway to keep the goop out?
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,323
    It was all copper piping and virtually nothing but clean water came out when draining and flushing. There seems to have been no leaks in spite of the horrible installation of the ultra.

    I'm going back after the new year and install a toe kick in the kitchen. I'll have to drain the upstairs loop again to do that and I'll make a decision about a dirt mag then.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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