Hi- Need Help Selecting Valves and Main Vent to Balance Heating System

5horizonsrr

Thanks! A minor bend fixed them. 2 vents are installed in the two worst "hot spots", fingers crossed they A: cool the small apartment and B, push heat upstairs...

5horizonsrr

Hi all,

A 48 hour update:

With boiler pressure, front to rear bias, and main vent (hopefully) sorted, I began tackling the overheating first floor.

Over two days I swapped the following:
- 2 main apartment radiators (of 3 total) to vent-rite 1.
- bathroom from gorton C to gorton 5 (temp fix because vent rite with elbow wouldn't fit.) I'll try and get a varivalve in tomorrow since that is a straight option which will fit the radiator case/cover.
- hallway/entryway from a broken Hoffman to a gorton 5 I had lying around

Results thus far:
- overall I've cut 2 degrees off the apartment high and low temps. (It's now 75 overall and 77 in bedroom) I need to shave another two if that is somehow possible to get realistic comfort.
- of concern is the 3rd floor upstairs feels no warmer to the tenant.
- vent rite in the bedroom I had to literally close and it's still 77. (Thermostat is 71 on second floor) But some banging in the pipes is the result. Maybe I just have to just shut the whole supply valve and close this radiator off?
- vent rite in living room is set very low (2-3)

Next steps:
1- Swap temporary bathroom gorton 5 with varivalve. Its a tiny apartment (450sf) so I hope this will drop another degree, or the desired 2 degrees.

2- what do you all reccomend for third floor improvement? (Currently 66 against thermostat 71) Second floor valve swaps or somehow main venting to the third floor? This is my main concern, they need about 2-3 more degrees until I'm at the legal 68.

Thanks for following my journey! While stressful in terms of my wife to hot and tenants too cold, it's been a fun and educational project

5horizonsrr

Hi again, another update:

In the end the temp kept rising on the first floor. I ended up closing one of the three radiators entirely (in the hot room) and that got me to where the temp needed to be. Hallway temp is great, if not warmer than necessary.

2nd floor as always is ok due to the thermostat being there and located away from radiators in a central position

3rd Floor: Here comes the grand finale, current data as follows:
- Vertical Main 1 feeds the following:
- Bedroom 1 is ideal temp on a 32" fin convector w/ Gorton "D"
- Bedroom 2 cooler, and venting slower. 48" convector
w/mystery valve (no brand or size markings)

- Vertical main 2 feeds an open living/dining room with the following:
- 43" with Gorton D, venting noticeably slower
- 48" with Gorton D (mounted sideways(!)- need to move this)
venting faster.
- The overall room is about 2 degrees cooler than I need it to be

So the question:

Knowing the variance in radiator sizes coming off the same vertical mains, can I install a Gorton D in bedroom 2 and they will balance, or do I need to accommodate for radiator size?

neilc

Try increasing vent speed where you want more heat on those 3rd floor convectors.
Or you may have to consider main venting these risers,
This may(would) mean revisiting all rad and convector venting though as you're changing/increasing main venting, which is to be done first and fast, then final adjustments or rebalancing at rad venting, rad venting to be "slow".

5horizonsrr

@neilc Thanks for the tips! I have reached what I think is the end of the line for what I can fiddle with.

Current setup is as such, as of last night's 2fl installations:

1fL: A constant 73 degrees, with Vent-Rite 1's on various low settings

2fl: Holds thermostat in central location, and 70-71 degrees. (set to 71, and it kicks on as it goes from 70 to 69) All gorton/maid-o-mist #6's as I tried to slow the floor's radiators down (from "C"s) in an effort to push heat up. Except for maybe eliminating some lows I do not feel this has done anything, but still monitoring before I jump to conclusions. I've noticed some pipe banging after the change to #6's last night

3fl: 66-68 (low/hi on cycle) degrees. All Gorton "D" Strangely one bedroom tracks 2-3 degrees warmer for no apparent reason but that is fine by me.

Any ideas? 1 more degree on average upstairs would literally do the job, if I can narrow that temp gap between floors a bit. Vertical mains would mean opening walls...

Fred

@5horizonsrr, You can put a vent on the horizontal pipe just before the third floor radiator and that will vent the entire riser. You may have to replace an elbow with a Tee, or drill and tap the horizontal pipe, if you can't install a Tee. Once you do that, you may also have to re-adjust the radiator vents on that riser on the floors below.

5horizonsrr

Thanks Fred. Overnight temps went down even lower on the 3rd floor, and the first floor seems a bit warmer so the switch to smaller valves on the second floor took things backwards in the end.

I'll need to sort how I can pull up/cut up some flooring to do vertical main vents. It sounds like the right solution, assuming I can access the pipes. I've attached an diagram of the two vertical runners/mains here, and what they feed. (identical on both sides of the house). So if I try to install a main vent, it wouldn't matter whether it was on the line to the left or right side radiator? And would I need a big mouth or something a with a little less horsepower?

Fred

What diameter is that pipe? Probably 2" max. I would think you could get away with a Gorton #1. You don't want one that is too large or that riser will wind up getting steam before the rest of the house.

5horizonsrr

Hi- the riser pipe is indeed 2". The two horizontal pipes must be that or even a little less. They are sealed under a floorboard.

I'm letting the temps settle over the weekend a bit as this morning's low temp panic turned into a comfortable 68 degrees in the afternoon. If it stay there or even drops a degree before the thermostat kicks in I'm labeling it a job done. If not, its investigating the vertical venting project.

Thanks as always!

neilc

slow the 1st floor down a bit more (?)
and a little faster on the 3rd (?)

what if you pick the coldest rad upstairs, move it over enough to add Fred's Tee, and a vent ?
(are those rads centered under windows?)

5horizonsrr

Hi Neil, they are under windows.

I went back to the prior setup with a few minor tweaks. In the end I just closed all 3 first floor radiators entirely. I'm not sure if this is bad, but temps are now manageable. We've gotten to this:

1Fl: (all closed): 70 degrees
2nd floor: All gorton C except a 6 in the bathroom, 70-71 degrees as boiler kicks on/off
3rd floor: 66-68 degrees as boiler kicks on/off

Knowing the above, I tend to bump the temp 1 degree and not to mess with vertical main vents, unless I'm missing something? The only detractor I can think of is efficiency, but there is no real way to easily tap in a vertical main vent as the horizontal line is under the floorboards and the riser pipe in a wall

Fred

@5horizonsrr , is the boiler short cycling as a result of those 3 radiators being shut off? That may not show up until you get a cold spell and the boiler runs a longer cycle.

5horizonsrr

Well, the cold spell should be coming on Wednesday...

By short cycling what do you mean? I've googled this before and couldn't find a clear answer. Sorry for so many questions!

Fred

Short cycling is when the boiler runs for a while (usually on a boiler that is over sized) and reaches the Cut-Out pressure set on the Pressuretrol before the thermostat is satisfied. When that happens, the burner will shut down, for a minute or two, until the steam in the system has condensed and then the boiler will fire again, shutting down in another couple or three minutes because the pressure has again reached Cut-Out setting. That will happen repeatedly until the thermostat is satisfied.

By closing off 3 radiators, you are making the connected EDR that much less and making the boiler over sized, even when it otherwise wouldn't be.

5horizonsrr

Ah- thank you! I will watch it in the coming days, particularly on Wednesday when it's supposed to drop under 10.

I know even before closing the radiators the boiler would sometimes cut before the thermostat temp was reached, although it wouldn't just turn right back on. It would just run a degree or two behind on a seemingly normal time between cycles.

I'll report back soon....

5horizonsrr

Hi everyone, so Iast night I turned up the temp one degree in hopes of getting the upstairs to the 67-69 range.

Just for precaution knowing the short cycle fear, I opened one large radiator in the first floor apartment. (of 1 small and 2 large total). The end temp is manageable in the apartment at 73 degrees, but now we are short cycling...

Earlier this am status:
Fl 1: 73 (75 over boiler in bedroom) and one radiator open
FL2: Thermostat set to 72
FL7: Not sure yet (waiting on tenant) but assuming 67-69

After the third short cycle this morning without reaching 72 I turned it back down to 71 which will hopefully at least stop short cycling since it used double the meter gas last night

Thoughts on what to do? The desired temps are finally where they need to be, but now it is short cycling (go figure). FWIW, it was short cycling on the one super cold day we had a week or two ago at lower temps, with all radiators open. Alternatively, with all open and heat up the other day it heated upstairs, but cooked downstairs.

Boiler is a weil-mclain, I can't find a model number or BTU marked anywhere, but serial number CP2025243 was on one metal outer casing. The home seller told me it was 12 years old, but the online weil site says 1991. Unless thats the tag from an older boiler?

I suspect all this is why the PSI was set to 4-5 when I bought the place- forcing more heat before it shut off...

If anyone knows a true ace steam pro in the NYC/Queens area I'm all ears should I have hit the end of the line and need to hire someone to just sort it.

Fred

I think @JohnNY or @Danny Scully and maybe @EBEBRATT-Ed, possibly @Dave0176 might be in your area. All are excellent. Let's see if they cover Queens.

ethicalpaul

I then had a chat for the second time- both him and the plumbing supply co said the big mouth is a steam trap for a 2 pipe system, and that it would not work.

I almost exclaimed out loud in dismay when I read this, which would have really alarmed my co-workers!

Dave0176

@Fred I don’t really service NY however I know @EzzyT and @JohnNY definitely do.

Danny Scully

Thanks for the consideration but I’m with @Dave0176 on this one.

5horizonsrr

Thanks all, I reached out to john and will try @EzzyT in the morning.

I opened the last closed radiator here, turned the thermostat down a degree and in the 9 degree weather it is short cycling. In the meanwhile I'm trying to discover any sort of a btu rating on the boiler somewhere.