Frozen steam return line vent

Hinman

Hello! New member here, but you guys have helped immensely since I found this website recently. I discovered this main vent hidden in a residents storage locker! Doesn’t look like it’s been changed in decades. The building is 3 stories 13 units, has two return lines and only two vents. One line for A and B tier in front and C and D tiers in back. I just added a Gorton #2 to the line for C and D tiers which is closer to the boiler, just need to fix this one. I tried some penetrating oil and can’t break it free. Anyone have any suggestions? I want to take the entire thing out, bushing and all so I have access to the full size of the hole. I plan on connecting some piping to the opening away from the wall so I can fit a Gorton #2. Seems like they used that tiny vent because there was no room to fit anything else? Not sure. Its a really long run from the boiler to that, probably 45- 50 ft away. It’s way to small for the line. Would applying MAP gas torch to it free it up? If so how do I do that? Do I apply the flame to the threads of the vent or to the big pipe? When do I know it’s hot enough? If that doesn’t work what is the next step? And what wrench would be best to use? I don’t want to ruin anything. I attached a few pics of the boiler too. Have at it with the jokes! It does work well believe it or not. Just needs to be balanced. Any suggestions for anything else I can do to get it working well would be appreciated.

Jamie Hall

Didn't give you a whole lot of room, did they? Penetrating oil and more penetrating oil... could try heating it. If you could get the vent off -- even if you have to cut it off (Sawzall time!) you might be able to drop a deep impact socket wrench onto it and hit it with an impact driver... might have to drive the socket on.

Hinman

Jaime, clever idea on using a socket! Yeah, not much room in that corner and I have to stand high on a ladder so basically it’s an awkward position for generating some force. Is it possible it will never come off? Just trying to avoid having to mess with the actual pipes. I can try more penetrating fluid? Maybe it will free up after a day or two and multiple applications of fluid.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I like @Jamie Hall impact socket idea.

A big pipe wrench would work but not sure if you can get in there with a 18 or 24" wrench. A 14" offset pipe wrench with a cheater pipe on the handle will probably do it. I question if you can get the wrench jaws around it with the wall behind it


Love the old boiler. Who said steel boilers don't last on steam??

nicholas bonham-carter

Use an open end wrench first, and while putting pressure on it, tap the wrench shank with a hammer. The shocks should loosen it up, and allow its removal.—NBC

Hinman

@Jim_R it’s just a long return pipe that fits into that elbow. The pipe behind it is a gas pipe. That white stuff is asbestos:) Here is another picture from a different angle. I circled the vent since it’s kind of blurry.

Neild5

Rather than trying to modify the wall, a Big Mouth vent would be must easier to install because it is 2 pieces.

ethicalpaul

“Have at it with the jokes” is the best thing I’ve read all week LOL 😂

Hinman

@Neild5 I’ve never seen the Big Mouth before, maybe it’s a regional thing? Anyway, how does it compare to a Gorton 2? I plan on connecting some pipe extensions so the vent isn’t as close to the wall. That should work, once and if I can get that damn thing off without calling for pro help. Admittedly I’m enjoying fixing a lot of this stuff myself. I put the Gorton 2 on the other return line and it’s made a HUGE difference in those 6 apartments. One apartment was always at 67ish, today I checked and it’s at 72. The other apartments on the line are much hotter as well. Once I get these mains setup correctly I’ll have to replace the vents in the apartment radiators to fine tune things. Thanks again for everyone’s thoughts and suggestions.

Hinman

@ethicalpaul ha! Seems like my boiler is the most old school I’ve seen in these forums so I knew people would think “**** is that”. Ha! My boiler welder said it’s actually a good boiler, people that installed new boilers have their own unique problems since they never replaced the original pipes in the buildings and just slapped in new boilers. He also said the new boilers aren’t as durable as the old ones. Who knows🤷‍♂️

ethicalpaul

Fine business! You have your own boiler welder? That’s cool!

Neild5

The big mouth vents more than twice as much as the Gorton #2. It is available from the heating help store. https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/barnes-and-jones-big-mouth-air-vent

Fred

@Hinman , That boiler will outlast anything installed today. I don't know how efficient it is but sometimes paying an incremental energy cost, in return for reliability and durability beats the hell out of saving a few dollars a month on fuel and then spending those savings every 10 or 15 years on a replacement boiler.

KC_Jones

Unless you consider Amazon regional?

https://www.amazon.com/Barnes-Jones-Big-Mouth-Vent/dp/B01F26P13C/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542546234&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=big+mouth+vent&dpPl=1&dpID=51Xan9l0yjL&ref=plSrch

One of the best parts about that vent is the 2 piece compact design that works in tight locations.

Hinman

@ethicalpaul he isn’t my personal welder, but he’s a good guy. Croatian dude who is good at his job. The boiler develops leaks once in a blue moon, had a few tubes replaced inside. He welds it all and doesn’t charge much.

Hinman

@Neild5 Wow! Twice as much as a Gorton 2 and it’s cheaper. The Gorton 2 at the hardware store is $100. Definitely going to try it out. Thanks for the suggestion.

Hinman

@fred true. That’s what my welder said. He mentioned the new boilers being inferior in terms of longetivity compared to the old iron ones. I have very few serious issues with this iron beast and the controls. Again, if it springs a leak or two every 5-6 years, it gets welded right up for cheap. Also, problems occur when you pair up new boilers with the old piping in a building(I have a building and not a house), the pipes are very big. New boilers need new pipes of the sizes designed for them. It would cost a fortune to re pipe a 3 story 13 unit building.

Hinman

@Jim_R wow! Where the hell did you find that?! What did you google to find that? Nice detective work. That looks just like my boiler. I’ll open it tomorrow and snap a pic for everyone. It has those tubes like the drawings. Pretty badass!

Fred

@Hinman , I would be very, very surprised if the piping in that building needed to be replaced because of a new boiler, unless they have rusted through which doesn't happen very often on the steam pipes, wet returns are another story but even then they last for decades. If/when you ever have to replace that boiler, size it to the connected radiator EDR (sq. ft. of steam) and the boilers already have a 33% piping and pick-up factor built in for the piping. Near boiler piping may need to be a little larger than normal but a complete re-pipe is not likely.

Hinman

@KC_Jones ha! I said regional because I’ve noticed that Chicago only carries a few brands at all the best HVAC stores and hardware stores. Gorton and Jacobus. Seems like you guys on the east coast talk about some other brands. I’m sure it depends on where the stuff is made. Dole used to be made here in Chicago but they went out of business. I don’t know. That Big Mouth sounds amazing for a gas fired steam boiler with long mains. When boilers switched from coal to oil to gas the way they operate and the way they deliver steam changed. When it was coal there was a constant supply of steam so venting the lines with massive vents wasn’t necesary hence that dinky vent in my picture. Coal was always smoldering or on fire in a boiler so there was always a certain amount of steam being generated. When it switched to gas the fire blasts on and off, there is no degree of flame/heat, it’s full blast or off. You want to vent he mains with the biggest vents you can get because of that. Fill the line with steam ASAP while the fire is going to get steam to the radiators quick before it turns off. You’ll also save more money because the boiler doesn’t have to stay firing working to get the steam to travel. Vent the main as fast as possible, then control the heat from the radiators themselves.

Hinman

@fred as I understand it larger diameter pipes are more of a problem than if the pipes are smaller. I have big pipes in the building from basement heading up. New boilers I was told function better with smaller diameter pipes. Larger diameter you’re more inclined to get water problems due to condensation from increased surface area. Not sure. Everything works for now. If it isn’t broke I’m not fixing it. But excited these main line vents will help things operate more efficiently. The vent I put on one of the mains made a huge difference.

ethicalpaul

Coincidentally I was at a parts counter in Fairfield, NJ yesterday and I asked them if they had the Big Mouth and they didn’t. So I went to Amazon for it myself

Fred

Hinman said:

@fred as I understand it larger diameter pipes are more of a problem than if the pipes are smaller. I have big pipes in the building from basement heading up. New boilers I was told function better with smaller diameter pipes. Larger diameter you’re more inclined to get water problems due to condensation from increased surface area. Not sure. Everything works for now. If it isn’t broke I’m not fixing it. But excited these main line vents will help things operate more efficiently. The vent I put on one of the mains made a huge difference.

Glad the vents helped and I hope that boiler lasts for many, many more years but I think you have been misinformed about the need to replace all of the piping because of their size. I mean it is steam now, right? A new boiler won't require the mains be replaced. Larger piping may take a little longer to come up to temp but it takes that amount of time with this boiler or a new one and the amount of condensation from those pipes won't change just because of a new or different boiler.

nicholas bonham-carter

A new boiler will only need the correct supplies coming out of it, (plus header), and no preexisting system piping will need replacement.—NBC

Hinman

@ethicalpaul oddly the price of the Gorton #2’s in Chicago are $100, but the little Gorton vents that go on the radiators are 12 for $112. Online prices for these two items are priced exactly opposite online, way more for the little radiator vents (like $20+ each) and cheaper for the big Gorton #2’s. I haven’t really shopped around much, but that’s what I’ve seen on a few websites. I’m definitely going to try the Big Mouth on the long long line....once I get the old vent off that started this post. Trying again tomorrow (Monday) morning.

Hinman

@nicholas bonham-carter you’re probably right. Again, I’m no pro. There is a lot of great information out there. I’m so glad I found this website. Thanks for your input:)

Hinman

Other than doing up the vents correctly, what other upgrades can I do to make the system work better and efficiently? What is a steam trap? Do I need one? Any fancy electronics or not so fancy electronics that will enhance the setup? I have a control box with 6 temp sensors in 6 of the 12 apartments. The Honeywell pressuretrol.