Conversion to new gas boiler = new problems

kgridley

We converted from oil to a natural gas boiler in August of this year. Once the heat turned on in the fall we experienced a lot of surging, banging, clanking, scary sounds. None of this happened with the old boiler which was very quiet. After a lot of phone calls, we had the install company come back several times to look at the system. They drained it to remove oil and reduced the pressure they had set at the initial install. The banging got better, but we now have some radiators acting like tea kettles and others not turning on at all. I am including some photos of the new install as well as relevant pictures from the boiler's manual. We don't have a lot of know-how when it comes to steam heat and could use any advice we can get. Does anyone see anything in particular wrong with the way the new piping was installed?

Dave0176

The header is piped wrong, there are no offsets, plus it’s very shoddy work. The system risers are tee’d off the one riser, WRONG, and it’s piped in copper, a no no on steam. Both returns tie in above the water line, wrong again.

Unfortunately you can call them and have them return a million times and nothing is going to get any better because they don’t what their doing. The quality of their work is apparent in these pictures. My suggestion is find a qualified contractor here on the site to fix these issues.

Where are you located?

KC_Jones

1. Did they skim the boiler? This is a time consuming process that takes hours of slowly pulling water off the top through the skim port. Your skim port is the pipe on the right side with the cap on it right beside the electric line.
2. The work is just sloppy in general, the equalizer isn't even plumb that isn't your problem, but it's not right
3. The mains are to come off the header individually, yours are tied together and then only 2 connection to the header. This could contribute to pulling water out of the header
4. Copper is not supposed to be used on steam carrying lines. The joints don't like the fatigue of going from ambient to steam hot, it works the joints and they can fail over time.
5. Condensate drains are tied above water line again this isn't proper.
6. Pressure is set too high, the Pressurtrol should be set as low as it can be. This isn't a control it's a safety, but if the boiler is over sized, and you don't have adequate venting it ends up being a control.

I don't see a smoking gun here, just a bunch of little things that add up to a poor running system. How did they size the new one? If I was gambling I'd bet on it being over sized as well. If you wanted to verify that we can help calculate your radiator EDR and tell you if it's sized incorrectly. Too big will cause operating issues.

I am sure others will chime in when they see this.

May I ask where you are located? We may know a knowledgeable steam contractor in your area, because honestly the one you had isn't.

pecmsg

Too add to your misery has that insulation been tested for Asbestos Fibers. Tough to do all that work close by and not make some airborne.

pecmsg

Were Permits pulled for this install?

Robert O'Brien

Obviously they are some near boiler piping issues. What made you select the contractor?

Steamhead

What model Burnham is it?

kgridley

Hi, all,

Thanks so much for all of your great questions and responses. To answer some of those questions and make some additional points:

1. We are located in Rhode Island. We did the gas conversion as part of an energy savings program here through the gas/electric company. The contractor was recommended through the gas company and we were won over by the level of customer service at the quoting stage. Once the contract was signed, the customer service went down the tubes (pipes?) really dramatically.
2. Because this was done through an energy program and heat loan, the contractor has already been paid for the work through the bank financing the loan.
3. They did not skim the boiler. The boiler was installed in the high heat of summer, and once the heat kicked on in late September is when we had the crazy surging/banging. It took us a week to get someone from the company here to look at it. They added a chemical to clean the pipes out and that helped for a day or so. We had to have them back once more to skim it again. Since then, we just did it on our own because once again the company's customer service is abysmal.
4. They sized the new boiler based on what our old (oil) boiler was and how many radiators we have in the house. At this point I can't get a new boiler at a different size because the loan has already been closed on and we already got our rebate for the equipment from the energy company.
5. The insulation on the nearby pipes is asbestos, but everyone who did work in the basement was aware of that before beginning work.
6. We paid for a permit as part of the contract, which the contractor was responsible for pulling. I have tried many times to get a copy of the permit from the contractor. I'm sure you can guess how many copies they have sent us.
7. The pressure was originally set to a 6, I believe, and I think they set it down to a 2, now. Is this still too high?

I have read and been told since the install that it's not appropriate to use copper pipes with steam, but there's this blurb in the manual (pictured in my original post in the NOTICE section on page 17) that seems to indicate that it's ok to use copper under certain conditions. Unfortunately, I have no idea if those conditions were met. Can anyone make sense of that?

kgridley

Steamhead said:

What model Burnham is it?

It's a Burnham PIN6SNI-HE2

KC_Jones

I'm not trying to beat you up here, but having worked for a power company I will say this (also for the benefit of anyone that comes across this) the "money saving" programs from the utilities almost never save anyone money, not when proper operation of a system is a criteria.

Many shady, less than knowledgeable contractors love these programs because it is guaranteed money no matter what the quality of work is. The above statements are generalizations from my experience, I am sure there are exceptions I just haven't seen them.

If they sized off the old boiler it's probably wrong, but sounds like that ship has set sail. So the goal here would be to get what you have working better. IMHO you have 2 choices, fight with your current contractor until they just stop talking to you or bring in someone who actually knows what they are doing.

If you go with #2 this is the company you need to call, is a true artist with steam and you can't go wrong.
@New England SteamWorks
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-england-steamworks0

https://www.newenglandsteamworks.com/

Fred

I 2nd what @KC_Jones said above. Do call @New England SteamWorks and get this mess cleaned up and resolved. You haven't saved anything in the so-called Energy Savings Program if the boiler is oversized and improperly installed and inefficient.

kgridley

New England Steam Works referred me here, so I will try to get some reparation from the original contractor and then go from there. Thanks, all!

Fred

kgridley said:

New England Steam Works referred me here, so I will try to get some reparation from the original contractor and then go from there. Thanks, all!

You might start by filing a complaint with the gas company since they suggested this contractor and they have a lot more clout than you have. He will, after all, be looking for additional business from that program

KC_Jones

Fred said:

kgridley said:

New England Steam Works referred me here, so I will try to get some reparation from the original contractor and then go from there. Thanks, all!

You might start by filing a complaint with the gas company since they suggested this contractor and they have a lot more clout than you have. He will, after all, be looking for additional business from that program

It's possible to get people kicked off the approved contractor list with utilities, in a different situation I have had that done. It isn't easy and my situation had a safety concern involved.

That is another angle you could try, but IMHO that contractor shouldn't be touching steam ever, good luck trying to get that done.

pecmsg

kgridley said:

Hi, all,

Thanks so much for all of your great questions and responses. To answer some of those questions and make some additional points:

1. We are located in Rhode Island. We did the gas conversion as part of an energy savings program here through the gas/electric company. The contractor was recommended through the gas company and we were won over by the level of customer service at the quoting stage. Once the contract was signed, the customer service went down the tubes (pipes?) really dramatically.
2. Because this was done through an energy program and heat loan, the contractor has already been paid for the work through the bank financing the loan.
3. They did not skim the boiler. The boiler was installed in the high heat of summer, and once the heat kicked on in late September is when we had the crazy surging/banging. It took us a week to get someone from the company here to look at it. They added a chemical to clean the pipes out and that helped for a day or so. We had to have them back once more to skim it again. Since then, we just did it on our own because once again the company's customer service is abysmal.
4. They sized the new boiler based on what our old (oil) boiler was and how many radiators we have in the house. At this point I can't get a new boiler at a different size because the loan has already been closed on and we already got our rebate for the equipment from the energy company.
5. The insulation on the nearby pipes is asbestos, but everyone who did work in the basement was aware of that before beginning work.
6. We paid for a permit as part of the contract, which the contractor was responsible for pulling. I have tried many times to get a copy of the permit from the contractor. I'm sure you can guess how many copies they have sent us.
7. The pressure was originally set to a 6, I believe, and I think they set it down to a 2, now. Is this still too high?

I have read and been told since the install that it's not appropriate to use copper pipes with steam, but there's this blurb in the manual (pictured in my original post in the NOTICE section on page 17) that seems to indicate that it's ok to use copper under certain conditions. Unfortunately, I have no idea if those conditions were met. Can anyone make sense of that?

#5 is a violation of Federal, State and local Codes. Knowing its Asbestos and not taking proper precautions if inexcusable. Report this the the utility that hired these clowns.

Might want to contact the State also: http://www.health.ri.gov/healthrisks/poisoning/asbestos/

#6 is easy contact the Local jurisdiction having authority and inform them. You are not at fault here they are.

KC_Jones

Last time I checked permits are to be posted at the job site and left there once signed they belong to the property owner.

Contact the AHJ, they will have record of it and should be able to get a copy. My money is on no permit as the OP I'm guessing, never saw it at their house where it belongs.

brandonf

@Pecmsg
Being a Rhode Islander all my life I've seen many people throw caution to the wind and just throw on a simple respirator and wet down the asbestos to remove it and bag it up. Very bad.

pecmsg

brandonf said:

@Pecmsg

Being a Rhode Islander all my life I've seen many people throw caution to the wind and just throw on a simple respirator and wet down the asbestos to remove it and bag it up. Very bad.

Exactly and when that bag breaks at the land fill?

Wrong is Wrong.

nibs

Have won two construction contracts from government agencies, one a school, and one a fire hall, in both cases they were aware of asbestos on site, and did not disclose it at time of tender.
The change orders were quite extensive in both cases.
You have to be careful with the stuff.