Newbie needs help with steam system

cynthia07104

First time homeowner and I am new to having a steam boiler and radiators as I have always had central heat and am in desperate need of some guidance since it’s getting COLD in the northeast. I had this boiler installed on a remodeled home and was assured it was sized correctly by the installer. My problem is I have two radiators which happen to be in the coldest rooms that don’t heat up completely when the boiler turns on. I have put the biggest vents on them I could find (D)and they still only heat up 3/4 of the way. I have made sure there was was nothing wrong with the radiators in question as when I turn up the boiler they heat up completely. Is it possible I need bigger main vents?

Also is insulating foil a necessity behind recessed radiators? My installer did not put any behind a singe radiator claiming there was not enough room? Oh, and I can’t go back to the company as they are long gone!!

KC_Jones

If I was guessing I would say you need more main venting. The idea of venting is to vent the mains fast (before any rads get steam) and then vent the radiators slowly for control. This gets steam to all the radiators at about the same time so each one can do it's job properly.

If you measure your mains, which would be the amount and size of pipe from the boiler takeoff to the end of main (vent location) we could recommend how much main venting you would require.

Start measuring where I circled in red and stop at your vents.

Also pipe size. I am guessing the mains are 2" pipe, but if you measure the outside diameter we can verify. For reference the actual outside diameter of 2" pipe is 2 3/8".

cynthia07104

KC_Jones the mains are 2” pipe. As for their length one is 55 feet and that one has a #1 Gorton - this one has some serious water hammering going on.
The other is 32 feet which has two #1Gortons - the radiators on this line do not get as warm as the rest of the house.

KC_Jones

A B&J big mouth on each of those mains would do you well. They vent approximately 6-7 times as much as those #1 vents.

No matter what you do I can assure you, you are massively short on main venting, which will definitely contribute to the uneven heating. Until you get that resolved the rad venting is like playing darts blind.

Water hammer is a separate issue and indicates you have water where it doesn't belong. This is typically improper pipe pitch or a sage in the pipe holding water. A level and a string line are your friend here. The highest point in the main should be at the boiler and it slops down over it's entire length until it returns or passes below the water line.

Steam should operate silently.

JUGHNE

Another item to check is on the left side of the boiler for the Hartford Loop connection.
Pictures of that and also the controls would help.

KC_Jones

Also, while the boiler piping doesn't look bad at first, there are no swing joints on that header. This has the possibility of negatively impacting the life of that boiler.

cynthia07104

JUGHNE I’m not sure if these are the pictures you requested I hope they are as I can use all the help I can get.

cynthia07104

KC_Jones would I be replacing all three of the vents on the mains with the B&J big mouths??

I am going to look up swing joints as I have no idea what they. With the help of you guys I’m hoping this mama can get her heat running 100x’s better than last year without spending a small fortune.

KC_Jones

Actually as a start you could put all 3 of those on the shorter main and put a big mouth on the longer main. That would be a more economical starting point.

Others may be along with more opinions.

JUGHNE

Does the HL look a little high to anyone???

Cynthia, do you have the installation manual for this boiler,
might be 40-50 pages long?
It might be hiding somewhere in the basement.

If not you can download it using the boiler model number.
It will give you some piping diagrams and familiarize you with terminology of some steam components.

cynthia07104

JUGHNE I am going to look for the manual and see if I can find some diagrams for this boiler.

I sincerely thank you guys for taking the time to help me figure this whole steam thing out.

neilc

hates to say this but that header is not correct.
the main takeoffs should not be between the boiler risers.
steam is coming up both risers and colliding at the takeoffs, carrying water with it and sending that out into the mains, to hammer time.
You'll see this in the manual also.
Do the venting first, 3 bigmouths, and look for the obvious sags in the mains to alleviate the hammer.
Though the hammer may be more the header.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/
the HL might be a little high.

ImYoungxD

I would say go with what KC_Jones said. Just buy 1 big mouth for now and see if that helps.

JUGHNE

Also, I highly suggest you getting the book, "We Got Steam Heat"
by Dan Holohan.
Great primer, easy read for your situation.

cynthia07104

Bought and installed the big mouths today as a first step. The weather is great today so the boiler won’t be running but I’m hoping it helps my situation. I am going over the manual also in hopes to find a diagram depicting the proper setup for this boiler. At least this way if I have to call someone in I know at least what I am talking about and what it should look like. I almost feel foolish as the company that performed the work was recommended.

cynthia07104

Upon reading the manual the HL should be 2 inches below the water line which should be 23 13/16. I’m sorry if this would be a dumb question but when measuring do I measure from the bottom of my boiler or do I measure from the floor up? I’m asking because my boiler is raised off the floor and set on what appears to be bricks.

If it is to be measured from the bottom of the boiler then the HL is two inches under the boiler water line.

Fred

It should be measured from the bottom of the boiler (the assumption being the boiler is sitting on the floor). It sounds like the HL is fine. As for the risers out of the header, it does need some swing joints to prevent the expansion that occurs during the heating process from putting stress on the boiler block. If that is corrected, it makes sense to correct the piping configuration as well, boiler riser, boiler riser, riser to steam main, riser to steam main, equalizer on the end of the header after the risers to the mains.
All the steam pipes should be insulated with at least 1" fiberglass pipe insulation as well. It is very possible that steam is condensing, in those uninsulated pipes before it can get to some of the radiators.

cynthia07104

Thanks to you guys I can see how my piping configuration is completely wrong. At this point I am going to seek professional help. Can anyone recommend someone in Northern NJ.

JUGHNE

Did the new main vents help the heating?
IIWM:
I would first do the main air vents that you have done.

Buy and read We Got Steam Heat.

Set the pressure as low as possible.
The gauge may not seem to work at 1-2 PSI.

Check all piping for proper slope as to drain (pitch) and also sags in between hangers......pipe will get a "belly" with age.
I usually double the number of hangers.
Use proper hangers, not wire.

Get fiberglas insulation, minimum of 1" thickness.
The horizontal steam main is the priority.
Once insulation is installed, checking the pipe slope is difficult.

It may be difficult to find someone who understands why your near boiler piping is wrong. You may have to go this season with existing piping.
You may have to shop around.
Check under "Find a contractor"

cynthia07104

JUGHNE changing the main vents helped tremendously the coldest room wasn’t as cold and as a matter of fact I didn’t hear much noise at all either when the boiler turned on. That would have been the first time I wasn’t woken up by the water hammering.

I am purchasing the book today and making it my nightly read.

With regards to the insulation, the pipes were left uncovered to allow the basement to warm up. Would I benefit more from insulating them and let’s say running an electric heater or just leaving them as is? I was told by the installer I would not be able to put any radiators in the basement due to them being lower than the boiler’s waterline.

SlamDunk

Further down the main page, there is a thread titled "why you should insulate steam pipes.

KC_Jones

Also you can absolutely do steam in the basement. 2 ways.
1 you could do ceiling mount steam depending on the actual height of the mains.

The other option is a hot water loop off the steam boiler. See this article.

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/

cynthia07104

Pressure is set at 1 PSI

JUGHNE

If you take the cover off the grey Pressuretrol there is another adjustment for the differential. You would want to set that at 1.

If you try to lower the front adjustment to much then the screw can fall out of the parts inside. Not the end of the world.
If you look inside you will understand the mechanism.

The front scale you want to read is on the right....PSI.
You are set near .5 now and then the inside setting of 1 would give you the range (in theory) of on at .5 and off at 1.5.

These controls are notorious for inaccuracy even when brand new out of the box. That is why a good 0-3 PSI gauge is recommended.

cynthia07104

JUGHNE- Ah I didn’t even notice the measurements were two different things... fixing it right now..

KC_JONES I’m glad you shared this info with me as my installer said absolutely no. Maybe he just didn’t know what he was talking about. I have found a Master Plumber in this cute that is fairly close to me and and going to mention this to him as I would like to finish off my basement by the end of this year.

I have to genuinely thank all of you guys that have taken the time to chime in and help me out.

cynthia07104

Just an update!! I had a company come out this evening and they told me they didn’t see anything wrong with the piping. The guy even said the HL was fine when I asked. Now I go down to the boiler to change the Presuretrol setting (the differential was set at 2) and notice the water line was much lower than when the rep was here and the HL is now easily 2 inches higher than the water line.
JUGHNE guess you spotted that just from the previous pic.

I’m going to have my buddy move the HL 2 inches lower than the lowest water line.

I think I might have to work on the piping once the season passes as I can tell I’m going to have a hell of a hard time explaining to people why my setup is wrong.

JUGHNE

Your Hartford Loop setting is determined by the measure you found in the book. Not necessarily the water line in the sight glass, as it will vary depending how much water is out in the system on it's way back and will often rise when the burner fires up with cool/cold water inside.

The normal water line would be with the boiler cold after all water has returned.

KC_Jones

There's always a positive. You are learning which companies not to call.

neilc

cynthia07104 said:

Just an update!! I had a company come out this evening and they told me they didn’t see anything wrong with the piping.

after you read the book(s) you probably won't want those guys back,
matter a fact, without reading the books, you don't want those guys back.

JUGHNE

If you found the height of the HL in the install manual, then recommended piping diagrams would be near that page.
That is the minimum requirement BTW.

Did you show it to the plumber who "saw nothing wrong with the piping"?

cynthia07104

I showed the plumber the manual and he said the piping is as the manual calls. He said in the diagram it shows the mains coming from the center of the header. He also said that the swing joints were overrated and not necessary.

I had my utility company come out at the crack of dawn and the serviceman said that the piping was as per their standards. He kept saying the banging noise was due to improper venting on the individual radiators.

KC_Jones

cynthia07104 said:

I showed the plumber the manual and he said the piping is as the manual calls. He said in the diagram it shows the mains coming from the center of the header. He also said that the swing joints were overrated and not necessary.



I had my utility company come out at the crack of dawn and the serviceman said that the piping was as per their standards. He kept saying the banging noise was due to improper venting on the individual radiators.

I'm literally speechless, but that won't stop me from typing. This will definitely sound rude, all those people you spoke to need to find new careers OR never ever look at a steam boiler again.

Yes that picture shows the mains from the middle, it also only shows 1 riser from the boiler you have both piped which changes things.

Swing joints overrated, he likes replacing failed boilers because it makes him money. Swing joints are a key piece of piping for many applications besides boiler piping. Wow, tell that guy to walk away from pipes. I wouldn't let him install a faucet.

Did we ever ask where you are? We may know someone competent in your area.

KC_Jones

Oh we need @Steamhead ....calling Steamhead.

cynthia07104

@KC_Jones I told the guy I had two risers and it would make things a little different and he looked at me literally like I was Medusa. I think I’m seeing a pattern with the people that have come out though. They are of the younger age group as am I so they might just be doing what they think works rather than practicing the true art and doing it the right way. And I’m thinking they don’t do the swing joints in order to bring in the $$$.

Im learning little by little by reading Dan’s work and watching his seminars until my book gets here. As with anything it’s better to know at least a little of what I’m talking about because I can see these knuckle heads I’m running into have no clue.

I’m in northern NJ by the way.

KC_Jones

cynthia07104 said:

I’m in northern NJ by the way.

@Dave0176 @EzzyT
Both very good with steam, both in NJ. You can't go wrong with either one.

There are some real garbage contractors out there, and it frustrates me how they steal peoples money.

nicholas bonham-carter

Peerless has a very good booklet called the color of steam, and I think it explains the problem of steam colliding in the header due to the riser in the middle, and I’ll try to find it here.—NBC

https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OnePipeSteam.pdf

cynthia07104

@KC_Jones thank you for the recommendation. I am going to send them a PM.

nicholas bonham-carter

Peerless has some excellent information on the subject of a colliding header:

https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/COH-1-Pipe-Handouts.pdf

https://www.peerlessboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OnePipeSteam.pdf

Fred

What a shame! All those people looked at your system and none of them could see the problem??

EzzyT

@cynthia07104 private message me and maybe we can set up an appointment