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If boiler manufacturers would...

hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390
Include a hydraulic separator schematic drawing as a preferred piping in their installation manuals, when the boiler requires P/S, here is what might happen:

Less warranties of failed HX due to lack of flow, air, dirt, iron oxide, and piping installation error.

Less tech support phone calls dealing with improperly sized, installed primary secondary piping, tough to troubleshoot over a phone call.

Less stress and anxiety on employees that have to deal with correcting the problem and related phone rage. Phone tech support is a high turnover position.

Higher profits, better customer retention, more profit sharing (trickle down economics)

To properly size a hydrosep you need to know one thing, highest expected flow rate, either side.

The win for the installer, assuming they use all 4 ports correctly:

Assurance of designed flow rate
No brawling circulators, all sizes shapes and colors of pumps get along.
High efficiency air removal, including micro bubbles
Particle removal down to 5 micron, the thickness of a human hair; some humans
Magnetic particle removal, common magnetite particles can be .05 micron
1 or more gallon of buffer capacity, more volume than some boiler HXers
Port for sensor well, gauge, etc.
Insulated device to assure more heat gets to the load, not the boiler room

The residential boiler room primary loop is so 1990's, it should have disappeared with parachute pants.
If you profess to sell high efficiency systems, use high efficiency components. We are getting past the older technology PSC wet rotor circulators, time to get past old technology piping methods.

Proper piping reduced pump failures also, a win for those manufacturers also.


Granted there are applications for primary loops in larger applications, maybe looping down a long corridor for multiple take offs, etc. I think Gil's original intent was a commercial piping method.

Kudos to the boiler manuals that show hydraulic separation devices in the I&O manuals.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
GroundUpIronmankcopp

Comments

  • SnowmeltSnowmelt Member Posts: 1,258
    Utica has a primary loop - but it looks undersized for 150,000 btu and it doesn't have a tapping for an indirect
    navien has a a prefab but doesn't have the indirect.

    wellmclain has both
  • Robert O'BrienRobert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,251
    Given the current price war, I wouldn't hold my breath.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Rich_49
  • Paul PolletsPaul Pollets Member Posts: 3,360
    Viessmann has done this since introducing their condensing boiler line.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,246
    What about fire tube and direct piping where applicable. Example large radiant single zone.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    GroundUp
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390

    What about fire tube and direct piping where applicable. Example large radiant single zone.


    Sure if the boiler manufacturer allows direct piping, no need to separate.
    I see some of the the fire tube boiler manufacturers spelling out the requirement or limitation to direct piping in their manuals.

    The problem becomes hearsay, thinking any FT boiler can be direct piped. If installers don't read or understand the limitations, FT type boilers will also experience pre-mature failure possible?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,729
    If boiler manufacturers would...
    ...ever listen to the people installing their equipment.

    It's odd how I still see new boiler manuals, some have modern design, some are still in the stone age-including one I saw with circs on the return, a steel expansion tank, and a 3 piece circ in the drawing.

    As far as warranties, that's quite a fight anymore. Most now have you bring the boiler to the supply house, pay for a new block. After they eventually check it (last one took 8 mos), they're really good at finding any reason not to pay out.

    Would be nice if they just took (bought) copies of your iDronics #19 and included it in the box.
    steve
    IronmanSolid_Fuel_Man
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 14,192
    But @hot rod , that would make way too much sense....... :s
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • GBartGBart Member Posts: 753
    I worked for a factory once, I tried to make improvements.

    they are more interested in what the bean counters say

    That's all I have to say about that.
    IronmanCanucker
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,246
    Weil McClain spells out the requirements in their manual on direct piping, and also says pri/sec is preferred. I just like that I can get away with only using one circ in those applications.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • D107D107 Member Posts: 1,724
    edited August 2018
    Is there any difference in the behavior of boiler companies that are privately owned vs those that have issued stock or been absorbed by larger corporations? Privately owned more open to innovation?
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 8,040
    To me the best advantage is having the correct flow through the boiler under all conditions. In most cases it probably prevents thermal shock although not really shock proof....more of a side benifit sometimes

    @hot rod you have pointed out many other advantages
  • bob eckbob eck Member Posts: 921
    Hot Rod
    If using the Caleffi 4 in 1 hydrologic separator does that unit do the following?
    Takes the place of a P/S piping kit + air eliminator + and dirt magnetic unit.
    When you add up the cost of these three items plus the labor to install them what is the cost difference compaired to buying and installing the 4 in 1 HS?

  • Rich_49Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,550
    bob eck said:

    Hot Rod
    If using the Caleffi 4 in 1 hydrologic separator does that unit do the following?
    Takes the place of a P/S piping kit + air eliminator + and dirt magnetic unit.
    When you add up the cost of these three items plus the labor to install them what is the cost difference compaired to buying and installing the 4 in 1 HS?

    Yes , it does replace all of those components in one well assembled part . When all things are considered , purchase , labor , it is a money saving venture and in every case so far , looks much better
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    delta T
  • D107D107 Member Posts: 1,724
    So since I am considering a proposal for a cast iron boiler to be piped primary-secondary, one ECM circ with three zone valves, this separator idea interests me. Eliminates prim-sec circ, yes? My only question would be when you combine all these functions in one, would the situation arise where one bad component could require replacing the the entire unit separator--at a greater expense--than having to replace separately a malfunctioning prim-sec kit, dirt magnet, etc?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390
    Low temperature zones off a cast iron boiler I assume? Typically you would not need a hydro-sep on a single cast boiler if you have high temperature emitters. Or a boiler return protection valve could be used to keep the boiler in it's safe operating temperature.

    There is only one moving part on typical separators, the float vent up top. On all Caleffi models it is removable, serviceable, and replaceable if needed. I imagine other brands have the same feature. The separator itself is just a pipe or tube. The Caleffis have a mesh inside which is also removable and serviceable.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    D107Rich_49
  • D107D107 Member Posts: 1,724
    Though I could likely heat my house with 140º water on a design day, I've been told water has to be kept minimum 160º if I want to keep it relatively simple without additional mixing valves, etc. 20º ∆T. Cast iron emitters, etc. Piped prim-secondary with a turbomax acting as indirect and buffer tank.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390
    If you are running 160, just use the TurboMax as a buffer, DHW and hydroseparator, it will be maintained at 160 all the time for DHW any way..

    Large pipe size at the tank becomes the hydrosep.

    When you use a 4 port hydrosep there is always some blending going on, and you may never get 160 to the radiators or indirect , depending on the boiler and system flow rate.

    This method assures boiler output to the loads at 160F, any excessive flow buffers in the tank.

    Fig 6-2 has a boiler return valve added, since it is a solid fuel boiler.
    Check valves on both pumps.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    D107
  • D107D107 Member Posts: 1,724
    Thanks so much @hot rod So there's a heating circ and one more that doubles as the prim-sec and dhw. Kept at 160, maybe stifles the outdoor reset possibilities a bit.
  • WellnessWellness Member Posts: 108
    edited August 2018
    @hot rod. I used a Caleffi separator before I switched to a buffer tank. Although they may have only one moving part, it does have, as I recall, four gaskets on the 4 pipe connections and those have to be serviced occasionally.
  • LaarsLaars Member Posts: 5
    Actually, Laars has been including in our installation manuals, drawings showing hydraulic separators since our Neotherm products came out. As our new products come out, we will continue to include them in our drawings. Thank you for the excellent feedback.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390
    edited August 2018
    Laars said:

    Actually, Laars has been including in our installation manuals, drawings showing hydraulic separators since our Neotherm products came out. As our new products come out, we will continue to include them in our drawings. Thank you for the excellent feedback.

    Thanks Laars, spread the word!
    You could skip the second air vent :)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    Robert O'Brien
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,390
    David107 said:

    Thanks so much @hot rod So there's a heating circ and one more that doubles as the prim-sec and dhw. Kept at 160, maybe stifles the outdoor reset possibilities a bit.


    You could maintain the tank at whatever it needs to give you adequate DHW, maybe 150- 160F? Make it the priority load to assure you always have DHW ready.

    Then supply the heat circuit via an ODR mixing device, plenty of options, Taco has some valves that may work depending on the building load. Or plenty of tekmar solutions.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
    D107

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