How do you approach a common issue, at least for me, in the field?

KCA_2

Hi all....

Here's the scenario...

Called to figure out some problem on a radiant system.
The system is a atmospheric boiler, no temperature mitigation control for radiant. Side arm set at 140° and boiler set at 160 or so...
The owner is happy with the system other than for the cycling issue he called me out for....
So there is 160° water flowing through the floor tubes, Domestic hot water must take a long time to be produced... actually, he has a 50 gallon electric water heater tied in to help.
So I attempted to explain all the issues but if the guy is happy, at what point do you just say.... enjoy, and walk away... he's also an friendly acquaintance....
A repair might cost $15,000 ish... And when it's all over , it may work no better because there's no saying how many tubes are in the floor. I hope you understand my conundrum .
Thank you all

lchmb

I would walk away.. to spend a large amount of money and fix nothing, the customer may at some point feel your doing him an injustice. It's not always possible to fix the work of others but you end up responsible..

newagedawn

bro, we dont discuss pricing on here, 15000 for a tempering valve, you will be in business for a long time,lol

KCA_2

If you thought I was discussing pricing then you missed what the question was really aimed at. It's more of a morals question than it is a pricing question. But nonetheless I appreciate your input.

hot_rod

What was the complaint they called about?

I would just explain the current accepted industry practices, offer options for an upgrade. Maybe put it in writing so all parties have a record of your suggestions.

I'd avoid any band aid fixes that would not "make it right"

I've been to a handful of 160- 180° direct boiler to slab systems installed in the 1950 and 60's. They certainly put out some heat

ScottSecor

I'd suggest leaving it alone and suggest the customer starts saving up for a new system (why would you want to put fertilizer on a weed as my father used to say). That advise alone may put you first inline when it comes time to upgrade. It has worked for us many times as the customer does not feel they were pushed into something they possibly could not afford at the moment.

I would certainly mention that he could save some serious money in the long run with more efficient system. Might want to mention payback too if it's relevant.

Jamie Hall

Tough one. We all would like to see things done "right" -- using the best current practices -- every time. And it is quite possible, even likely, that your client is one of those as well. However, it is also possible that your client is, quite honestly, simply not able to afford to do that. Even though they may not say so openly, one must be rather careful to put them into the position of having to admit that to themselves. That is not a comfortable admission to make!

It's all very well to talk about payback -- spend x thousand now, and you'll recover the money in y years -- if the client is in a position where they can raise x. They may not be.

So... what do you do? Perhaps with some thought and ingenuity one might be able to come up with something which is much less costly and, while not state of the art, will accomplish some good. If the complaint is short cycling, perhaps a simple mixing valve and a buffer tank could go a long way, for example.

KCA_2

I very much appreciate all the answers to the question. The original call was for short cycling.

I agree a tempering valve would probably be the thing to do fairly inexpensive then make a list with some ballpark estimate. That's probably the best thing.

Sometimes you just get overwhelmed with the lack of thought that goes into some of these installations.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Why not just put another circ and a couple of 3 way valves. Keep the boiler hot enough for dhw and limit the radiant to 120

Zman

Reducing the temp to the floor will reduce the output and make the short cycling worse. Unless you think they are game for a buffer tank, I would suggest leaving it alone.
Sometimes the only real fix is a do over.

Mark Eatherton

Kenny, the best you can do is to clearly (in writing) spell out the deficiencies, and explain the option and the benefits of your recommendations. If he chooses to NOT take your advice, then it is what it is. If he doesn't take your recommendations to heart, then explain what else is going to happen (boiler replacement, etc) based on your years of experience.

I guess you missed the Holohan seminar on why you shouldn't work for your friends, or the church

Do that and then you will have done the right thing. If he decides not to take your advice, he will eventually be out a LOT of money.

ME

Jamie Hall

I agree with @Mark Eatherton -- but may I add the hardest part: try to do this is such a way that you do not make them feel ashamed or degraded for not being able to make the investment (that is, assuming that they are genuinely not able to, and not just being cheapskates -- it can be hard to tell). If you do that, then when and if they are able to come up with the money, they will think of you positively.

gennady

I would explain what is wrong with the system in my opinion, what is involved to fix it, prepare proposal with phone number on it and then walk away.