40 SEER is out, Carrier

GW

Anyone tried the new 40 SEER 9k or 32 SEER 12k yet? Looks luscious.

That's WITH a pan heater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUGHNE

I recall when manf would proudly put "8" on the outside of the unit and really proud to mark one with a "10" seer.

ChrisJ

40 SEER...

What's the EER on those units?

ChrisJ

Best I could find was this..

"Up to 42.0 SEER
Up to 15.0 EER"


I don't know, I still think SEER ratings are in the land of make believe and EER is far more realistic.


Not that 15 EER isn't very impressive, it just won't sell equipment near as good as a number like 40+.

Tinman

I have 8 SEER Rheem units from the 80's still going strong.

To answer your question, I don't know why they choose not to replace them.

GW

The 9k is 15 EER and 42 seer, that’s the rating. It’s not “up to”. The ahri numbers are official, some nerdy person in a lab is running these units on a bench

Yes seer is a little smoke and mirror but that’s the kinda like the MPG sticker.

Jack

When I represented Fujitsu, when the first of the inverter units came out in I think it was '08, I was speaking with one of the Japanese engineers. He offered that they felt the SEER of their units was in the low to mid-30's but that the US test method couldn't properly test it. That has been the case on all of the modulating equipment. Testing procedures have had to be developed and I really don't know how they are run today. EER is the utilities favored number because it represent the max draw of the unit, which for peak shaving is important to those utilities. With single stage gear EER is the right test. With inverters it has, as I understand it, become less of an issue and SEER and HSPF more relevant. Carrier's units are made by Toshiba aren't they?

GW

I’m pretty sure this is the Midea line. The Toshiba is their commercial stuff.

I agree that Seer is voodoo number crunching but whatever. Yes, EER and HSPF is the real McCoy

Jack

I guess I mis-stated. I think ALL the ratings get played, but I think EER is the least useful to the consumer with inverter equipment. EER is the rating for max input which other than a hot start rarely happens. High hspf’s rock in your area.

ChrisJ

> @Jack said:
> I guess I mis-stated. I think ALL the ratings get played, but I think EER is the least useful to the consumer with inverter equipment. EER is the rating for max input which other than a hot start rarely happens. High hspf’s rock in your area.

EER shows the equipments efficiency under heavy use which gives a good idea on how well it's designed.

And hot starts do not meet EER testing requirements last time I looked.


Extended run times during heat waves is when systems suck down the most power, not during cooler days when inverters allegedly do their best. Neither an inverter or a cheap single stage is going to use much on a 75 degree day but when it's 90-100 out they sure will.


It would be interesting to have two identical structures, one with a 14 SEER 12 EER single stage and the other with a 21 SEER 12 EER inverter right next to each other with no other variables. I'd bet the inverter never saves enough to even come close to paying for it self.

The inverter will be quieter most of the time and more comfortable without a doubt. But save money? I doubt it.


Of course I could be wrong, but those are my current thoughts.

hvacfreak2

This means that they are allowed to factor in for " part load " , VRF manufacturers have been pushing for this since their start as Jack mentioned. I'm sure there is plenty of existing equipment on the market that will soon advertise similar ratings.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@ChrisJ I have to respectfully disagree.

While I'm not a fan of mini-splits in general. Inverter technology has huge energy savings over conventional split-capacitor motors. Have any brushless cordless tools? Same thing.

As far as longevity, it is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be reasonably. They can build a unit which would conceivably last forever.......monitor top......and a unit which is throw away in 10 years.

Inverter is pulsed DC running basically a stepper motor.

ChrisJ

> @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
> @ChrisJ I have to respectfully disagree.
>
> While I'm not a fan of mini-splits in general. Inverter technology has huge energy savings over conventional split-capacitor motors. Have any brushless cordless tools? Same thing.
>
> As far as longevity, it is whatever the manufacturer wants it to be reasonably. They can build a unit which would conceivably last forever.......monitor top......and a unit which is throw away in 10 years.
>
> Inverter is pulsed DC running basically a stepper motor.

This is reflected in the EER of the system, no?

pecmsg

Eventually all units will be inverter or variable speed.

ChrisJ

> @pecmsg said:
> Eventually all units will be inverter or variable speed.

There's only two ways that will happen. Either cost needs to come way down or the government will make it a requirement.

How many inverter splits have you installed in the past two years?

Harvey Ramer

There is a lot of trickery and manipulation with manufacturers and equipment ratings.

Best thing I know to do is dig into the engineering manuals and check the outputs and COP ratings at different temp points. Pick one that performs the best for the bulk of the heating/cooling season in your geographical area.

I like COP ratings much better for inverter units then anything else. They can't be screwed with and give you an accurate indicator of power consumed versus unit output at various points.

Jack

"I an of course be wrong, but those are my current thoughts."

Me too!

mikeg2015

EER I think is realistic because you use the most energy on hot day at 95F or above, and coils are rarely clean, and homeowners want to cool the house 3F in 30 minutes with oversized equipment.

On hte flip side oversized inverter equipment runs part loaded more, but in mild weather short cycles give some economy back.

Oversizing requires more expensive equipment however, so a lot of savings is given back.

Finally, the indoor WB and DB are well above where consumers run their oversized systems that don’t dehumidify well. Most homes are 70-72F not 75F.

I suspect 90% of my run time is above 80F OAT. 80% on high stage because the unit it perfectly sized (starts to fall behind on a sunny day above design conditions... and I
M still adding attic insulation.)