AC Change Out

Dan Foley

Poppy and Ron knocked this one out today. They replaced a 20 year old Lennox AC. The coil was leaking. Before pics.

Dan Foley

They went back with a Carrier 2-stage Infinity 17 with a variable speed air handler, Honeywell cartridge filter and tekmar 2-stage thermostat.

ratio

Looks good!

What's that wrap around the lineset & whip?

Dan Foley

The wall seal and wrap kit is now required by code here.

HVACNUT

Did you have to open a wall for the line set? The original goes up exterior.

Dan Foley

Yes, we opened the wall and ceiling for the new line set. Good eye.

the_donut

Not looking forward to a coil leak in our units. Same setup R22. Wish we could still get our hands on 407 condensors.

GBart

Wouldn't the Infinity system be more efficient with the Infinity controls/user interface than the Tekmar? Doesn't that defeat the variable speed features and computer thinking?

Dan Foley

Not necessarily. Not a big fan of the Infinity control.

GBart

I see this a lot, people install high efficiency equipment with standard thermostats, to my knowledge anytime you do not use the system user/interface with any of the high end equipment you are relegating that equipment to be 87% efficient, it's not going to think, it's going to turn on and off and that's it. You might as well just sell standard equipment because it's going to actually reach it's full potential, ever.

The Infinity system is communicating as are others, if you don't wire it ABCD it doesn't communicate. People have done this as well buying a Nest or other faux super thermostats thinking it makes their system better. If you replace the user interface with a Nest you dumb down the system, it's not worth spending the money on an Infinity or any other high end brand.

Nice installation though.

SuperJ

If it's just a a 2 stage unloading scroll, then any 2 stage cooling stat will probably work fine. Ideally with an ECM fan and dehum option. The full modulating models are a different story.

GBart

Unfortunately if you don't use the entire system with Trane, York or Carrier all high efficiency gains are lost, sometimes all of your variable speed is too.

GBart

For example in the Infinity furnace manual it states : " For best results, use a communicating wall control to control this
modulating furnace. A single stage or two--stage heating and
cooling thermostat can be used with the furnace. The furnace
control board CPU will control the furnace and outdoor unit
staging. A two stage heating and cooling thermostat can also be
used to control the staging. However, full modulating capability
will not be available when the furnace staging is controlled by the
thermostat. Furnace staging will be limited to Minimum and
Maximum inputs or Intermediate and Maximum inputs depending on the configuration of set-up switches SW1-2 and SW4-2."

So the CPU may go from low to high fire and vice versa but it won't know what's going on, for instance on a warm day or when the set point is 70 and the room is 69.7 you would not go to high fire, you would throttle down, and that wastes fuel.

Plus the Infinity control- user interface, gives you the model and serial numbers, cfm, all cycle and error events dates info, it will even tell you the voltage to the condenser and much more, it's a great system. It just takes time to get used to it like anything else.

Harvey Ramer

I've used York's communicating control and was sorely disappointed. Multiple service calls. Changed the control. Did various other things and it still doesn't read the temp correctly. Never again.

GBart

Well then you call York technical support,

first off you DON'T install this stuff without taking factory training courses, it's 2018, get trained, the fact is if you are selling and installing SUPER efficiency and then install a standard control to it, you do not have SUPER efficiency, you have a fallacy.

Some of the fault lies with the factories and corporations selling this high end equipment, they only care about sales, you should not be allowed to purchase it without factory training, Energy Kinetics achieves this by selling direct and skipping the supply houses.

High end HVACR equipment can get a bad name from people that try to install or service it without factory training, this stuff is not always plug and play but no communicating equipment should be sold if it's not going to be communicating.

Tinman

@GBart - You're making some broad assumptions about some of the best HVAC guys I've known. Maybe check your ego at the door?

Harvey Ramer

> @GBart said:
> Well then you call York technical support,
>
> first off you DON'T install this stuff without taking factory training courses, it's 2018, get trained, the fact is if you are selling and installing SUPER efficiency and then install a standard control to it, you do not have SUPER efficiency, you have a fallacy.
>
> Some of the fault lies with the factories and corporations selling this high end equipment, they only care about sales, you should not be allowed to purchase it without factory training, Energy Kinetics achieves this by selling direct and skipping the supply houses.
>
> High end HVACR equipment can get a bad name from people that try to install or service it without factory training, this stuff is not always plug and play but no communicating equipment should be sold if it's not going to be communicating.

I did of course, take the training and call tech support multiple times. Non of that seemed to make a difference in the temp drift of the control. Although I did get them to admit they had been having some problems with them.

GBart

Stephen Minnich said:

@GBart - You're making some broad assumptions about some of the best HVAC guys I've known. Maybe check your ego at the door?

what broad assumptions??? the fact is, FACT IS, if you install communicating equipment like the Infinity and you use a standard control (THERMOSTAT) instead of their COMMUNICATING INTERFACE YOU LOSE EFFICIENCY BIG TIME

I HAVE NO EGO, I HAVE FACTS

BUT THESE DAYS AMERICANS HATE FACTS, THEY PREFER TO RUN ON OPINION

GBart

Harvey Ramer said:

> @GBart said:

> Well then you call York technical support,

>

> first off you DON'T install this stuff without taking factory training courses, it's 2018, get trained, the fact is if you are selling and installing SUPER efficiency and then install a standard control to it, you do not have SUPER efficiency, you have a fallacy.

>

> Some of the fault lies with the factories and corporations selling this high end equipment, they only care about sales, you should not be allowed to purchase it without factory training, Energy Kinetics achieves this by selling direct and skipping the supply houses.

>

> High end HVACR equipment can get a bad name from people that try to install or service it without factory training, this stuff is not always plug and play but no communicating equipment should be sold if it's not going to be communicating.



I did of course, take the training and call tech support multiple times. Non of that seemed to make a difference in the temp drift of the control. Although I did get them to admit they had been having some problems with them.

well then in my book you drop them, the York stuff I'm not crazy about, Carrier is owned by UTC which owns Hamilton Standard if you catch my drift, communicating equipment adds a layer of issues, many times we need to run shielded cable and not standard thermostat wire because the signal can get influenced by any magnetic field the wires go by, there is no doubt these systems can be problematic, I spent countless hours on the phone as tech support for Carrier trying to figure out what the cause was

the point I was trying to make was I see many people in the field assuming you can use any control/thermostat and it's just easier, it is but performance drops and it should be emphasized more by the manufacturers in LARGE PRINT but instead it's on page 26 because they don't want that fact to affect sales

Tinman

@GBart - You’re yelling at me because I took exception to the fact that you assumed Harvey Ramer and Dan Foley, of all people, haven’t done their diligence?

Chill.