Florida Bridge Collapse

Solid_Fuel_Man

Yes, I've worked several "federally funded" jobs and had scale wages as well. It just seems mind blowing that this could happen.

Gordy

Domino effect......

Gordy

https://youtu.be/DXxHdQ-aBEE

Gordy

https://youtu.be/6ycbDCnoO8M

Gordy

The Swedes don’t mess around real bridge mock up.

https://youtu.be/AL7EFNUV1i4

Vinny_5

I know that many of you are very familiar with NYC roadways. This kind of incident always worried me in so many areas of the city that I used to drive on or under. The Gowanus immediately comes to mind, as does much of the BQE, FDR Drive, and so many more. I often remember seeing roads and support columns in such disrepair that I wondered how it was still standing.

Mad Dog_2

I said it the first day: Did ANYONE think to shut down traffic while they "tightened" loose cables?
Nah, that would cause a traffic jam. Too costly, right? Just looking at it intact, before it buckled, it looked like it was a piece of crap! A lot coming out on the terrible mishaps and OSHA violations this company has had. The N.Y. Post
had an article picture of a man that was crushed under it. He was a crane operator himself with wife and 3 young girls. He looked like he knew his S--- and could be any one of us. Here he was traveling to or from work and he is the victim of shoddy work, rigging, engineering. The Irony! Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2

And how about the Driverless Uber car that just killed that woman? Blind Faith in technology
Ignores sound engineering standards AND common sense. Mad Dog

ChrisJ

> @Mad Dog said:
> And how about the Driverless Uber car that just killed that woman? Blind Faith in technology
> Ignores sound engineering standards AND common sense. Mad Dog

Once again......someone blaming "technology" while posting from a computer,on the internet. This isn't 1960, we have a lot of cool stuff but it shouldn't take the blame for morons.



Meanwhile no one has actually said what caused this.

hot_rod

35W in Minnesota, built in 1964 failed due to gusset plates being undersized. Although deicers may have also played into the failure. Some suggested the pigeon poop may have contributed

Gordy

> @ChrisJ said:
> > @Mad Dog said:
> > And how about the Driverless Uber car that just killed that woman? Blind Faith in technology
> > Ignores sound engineering standards AND common sense. Mad Dog
>
> Once again......someone blaming "technology" while posting from a computer,on the internet. This isn't 1960, we have a lot of cool stuff but it shouldn't take the blame for morons.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile no one has actually said what caused this.
>
>


What I was trying to convey is we all need to be cognitive in relying completely on software, and not neglect how to get the answer with out it.

It may take longer, but the steps reveal mistakes in short order.

Gordy

> @hot rod said:
> 35W in Minnesota, built in 1964 failed due to gusset plates being undersized. Although deicers may have also played into the failure. Some suggested the pigeon poop may have contributed


Pigeon poop is corrosive. So is deicing.

The problem with infrastructure is we are reactive instead of proactive.

Bridge expansion joint failure opens a can of worms in the snow belt. A can that leads to substructure failures.

If they were fixed before they leaked huge dollars are saved, and less work.

NY_Rob

Mad Dog said:

And how about the Driverless Uber car that just killed that woman?

Some new details have emerged regarding this accident...
A human driver probably would have run her over too.

"Tempe police chief says early probe shows no fault by Uber"

"Pushing a bicycle laden with plastic shopping bags, a woman abruptly walked from a center median into a lane of traffic and was struck by a self-driving Uber operating in autonomous mode."

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Exclusive-Tempe-police-chief-says-early-probe-12765481.php

Fred

The most recent update from the FDOT was that they were not advised that any stress testing was being scheduled as that would have required a Permit and the road to be closed. Seems like, aside from some catastrophic failure in either design/materials/installation, there were also gaps in the procedures that were implemented.

Mark Eatherton

Or the media doing their usual thing... Building false narratives to meet their wishes. Lot's of that going around these days.

ratio

Mark Eatherton said:

Or the media doing their usual thing... Building false narratives to meet their wishes. Lot's of that going around these days.

This. The 'news' story linked to at the top of the thread should be pretty offensive to anyone who thinks that details of what exactly went wrong are of any use. It's quite tedious reading through trying to find any facts beyond what the pictures told.

Gordy

The media likes to throw information at the viewers as it becomes available. No rhyme or reason. First to break the news is all they are interested in.

Here is the thing permits to close a road just do not happen in minutes, or even days. A traffic control plan needs to be done, which was already implemented once except for a short duration at a low volume time frame on the weekend.

It’s possible the situation called for a quick reaction, and they didn’t have that kind of time frame.

However one could have certainly used flaggers to stop traffic during the procedure at the risk of being fined by FDOT for improper traffic control. Better than a collapsed bridge, and dead motoring public, I say instead of a collapsed bridge blocking traffic with no one hurt except possibly workers.

Gordy

I will say FDOT is very quickly washing their hands of the event. It didn’t look very professional that the on site engineer’s phone call wasn’t returned for days.

It shows that they either weren’t as concerned because this was for a private owner, however it was over their road, or they didn’t take it as seriously as they should have.

I find it interesting as unique of a design as it is they were not more in tune to the project. The mind set from the district should have been crack? Where? I’ll be right out. No matter if the on site engineer thought it was irrelevant.

BobC

I saw something this morning that sad the tower and cables were for decorative purposes only and would not add structural strength - don't know if this is true or not. I saw something yesterday that said they moved one of the supporting piers, if this is true it could be a problem.

I still find it hard to understand who would think of making adjustments or stress testing with traffic flowing under the bridge.

Bob

Gordy

https://bridgemastersinc.com/9-common-reasons-for-bridge-failures/

Gordy

Another inflated fallacy of the design is the being able to with stand a CAT 5 hurricane 185mph winds. Plenty of bridges that take a F5 tornado hit with 300 mph winds, and debris, but for shorter durations.

The cable stays could have been decorative, if the bridge could have supported service load with out them. Apparently not the case.

Bridges are designed with up to a 5:1 safety factor for various reasons. This is bumper to bumper traffic at a dead stop. The other reasons are service life, fatigue,deteriorating components.

Gordy

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/

Gordy

http://www.idot.illinois.gov/assets/uploads/files/doing-business/manuals-guides-&-handbooks/highways/construction/standard-specifications/12specbook.pdf

Gordy

http://www.fdot.gov/programmanagement/Specs.shtm

Gordy

Browse through the spec book links I provide to better understand what contractors must abide by during construction of roads, and bridges. Jump to structures in the appendix. Research instead of search

Steamhead

Mad Dog said:

I said it the first day: Did ANYONE think to shut down traffic while they "tightened" loose cables?


Nah, that would cause a traffic jam. Too costly, right? Just looking at it intact, before it buckled, it looked like it was a piece of crap! g

Proving once again that you can't fix stupid.

Gordy

This was done in a weekend once the substructure was completed. Take note of the temporary shoring towers, and this is a much lighter design all steel.

https://youtu.be/BM0wKgwoWw0

Gordy

But who would that impress.....pretty bland. No wonder tuition is so high.......

BobC

This is a vid that was done a few days ago. He discuses the design concept, the fact that the yet to be installed tower and "stays" was cosmetic and did not affect the strength of the bridge, and that the bridge was moved into position with supports to far inboard of the ends of the span. That mat have weakened the structural integrity of the bridge before it was hoisted into place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxQJj8D_FE0&list=PLf0IJmoCsLHnIIT8k2pdnWgirQc9WlKl0

The video below corroberates that the bridge was improperly supported when it was moved into place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvmvFQKTrMY

Bob

Gordy

IF they were improperly placed at roughly 1/4 points then the designers had a hand in it.

All that would have been verified through the lift plan, which is a requirement for the contractor. The lift plan also needs to be engineered, and okayed before anything is done.

Fred

There was an order issued, during construction that one of the supports be moved and that supposedly added 11 feet to the span of the bridge. They are looking at the possibility that the bridge itself may not have been constructed to accommodate that added expanse.

Gordy

Adding 11' is not that easy for that type of design, if you mean the span from pier to pier was lengthened.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I just wonder if the truth will be conclusive. No, it wont, just a bunch of lawyers and finger pointing. It will be so confusing we will never know the truth

Gordy

Fred said:

There was an order issued, during construction that one of the supports be moved and that supposedly added 11 feet to the span of the bridge. They are looking at the possibility that the bridge itself may not have been constructed to accommodate that added expanse.

Where was this information Fred? Got a link?

Fred

@Gordy:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-bridge-collapse-fiu-florida-state-university-project-behind-schedule-over-budget-updates-2018-03-20/

Gordy

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I just wonder if the truth will be conclusive. No, it wont, just a bunch of lawyers and finger pointing. It will be so confusing we will never know the truth

If the reason isn’t definitive as to who is solely responsible the firm with the most money, and better lawyers will prevail. Most likely split the lawsuit between all involved, or connected.


Seen this happen with deep pocket power utility company.

They were suppose to shut down the power to set a bridge girder next to a power line. I mean the cranes hoist line had to be touching it to place the girder in the proper position. Designers don’t care what’s in the way.......and utilities don’t want to move anything on a temporary basis.

Power company gave the go ahead that the power was shut down.

Girder setting proceeded as planed. The crane line touched the girder nothing happened. However once the end of the girder touched a rebar protruding out of the abutment all hell broke loose. Power found ground.....

Blew three iron workers touching the beam to the ground.
Burnt the hoist cable on the crane half way through. Luckily due to rigging safety factor the operator was able to swing it back to dry ground, and set it down. The bridge was over a very busy rail line.

After the smoke cleared the power company showed up. The crew openly admitted they forgot to shut the secondary off.....

OSHA found fault in not having a visible ground on the power lines on both sides of the work area. The power company was in charge of grounding. They did one side. The side with out the secondary......

No one was killed, and the injuries were not critical the guy that got hurt the least sued for the most.

When it went to litigation the power companies lawyers said we were all at fault let’s just split it.
The split was between the
GC not even on site.
The sub building the bridge.
The sub setting the girders.
The sub that owned the crane to set the girders (rental)
The power company. That caused the whole issue, and who’s personel openly admitted they screwed the pooch. However who had the deeper pockets got their way because most want to move on, and not drag it out in courts for an eternity of continuances until the wallet runs dry.

BobC

And people wonder why I detest lawyers.

ChrisJ

> @BobC said:
> And people wonder why I detest lawyers.

I highly doubt it.

Gordy

Fred, that played no role in the collapse. That change was designed in to the structure. This wasn’t a decision after plans were completed, and approved. FDOT probably wanted more clearance between the pier, and the road for traffic safety reasons, or possible road reconfiguration in the firmer. Turn lane, shoulder etc.

Mad Dog_2

Chris: I'm glad you so readily embrace RADICALLY new technology. Would your great grandpappy put the fambly in a horse drawn coach with no hack driver? Mad Dog