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Is my primary secondary correct?

Do I need another circulator on the primary loop, to cut the tees between boiler and cap, or is this correct.

The unit is running and heating at this time

Comments

  • TwinCityPHTwinCityPH Posts: 4Member
    The IBC has a internal circ
  • kcoppkcopp Posts: 3,090Member
    My Favorite boiler.
    You used the watts EZ pipe manifold and that is your primary loop.
    All you needed to do from there was a supply to the zone and a return.
    You instead looped that around.
    I am kind of surprised you are getting enough flow.
  • edited February 10
    Something like this?

    Nice looking job. Who makes those pipe clamps?
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 4,375Member
    If you're gonna add the second zone that's looped together, then you'll need the second circ. If not, follow Alan's drawing.

    A word of caution though: the second loop is in series and will receive cooler water supplied to it than the first. If you need the same SWT to both loops, then it should be piped like this:



    You also need to remove the black iron fittings from the potable lines.
    Bob Boan







    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • TwinCityPHTwinCityPH Posts: 4Member
    The potable water lines are S.S. Not bulk iron, if I cut in a valve on the EZ manifold and have it in the off position would it be correct with the IBCinternal circ?
  • TwinCityPHTwinCityPH Posts: 4Member
    The clamps are just split ring hangars going to unistrut
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 4,375Member

    The potable water lines are S.S. Not bulk iron, if I cut in a valve on the EZ manifold and have it in the off position would it be correct with the IBCinternal circ?

    It would work if you only have one secondary zone, but if you add the second one, you're still gonna have decreased SWT to it.

    Bob Boan







    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • This might be the easiest way to rectify what you have.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • HVACguyinMEHVACguyinME Posts: 23Member
    Why do you want to cut into this? It’s piped fine.
  • HVACguyinMEHVACguyinME Posts: 23Member
    Just kidding, I looked at the picture again! It is piped wrong! The only way to fix this now is to remove the ez header and pipe left pipe into supply side of boiler and right side into return.
  • ZmanZman Posts: 4,304Member
    edited February 12
    Ironman said:

    If you're gonna add the second zone that's looped together, then you'll need the second circ. If not, follow Alan's drawing.

    A word of caution though: the second loop is in series and will receive cooler water supplied to it than the first. If you need the same SWT to both loops, then it should be piped like this:



    You also need to remove the black iron fittings from the potable lines.

    This is the best way to pipe it.
    I would just bite the bullet and make it right. I don't see a quick fix.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,831Member

    Something along this idea...
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Posts: 1,119Member
    edited February 12
    @lchmb ... Beautiful install!

    Your photo also reminded me to order that very handy condensate neutralizer tank/pump (Saniflo Sanicondens Best 041) for my system. Pulling out a tray to clean/replenish the media sure beats removing and disassembling the condensate neutralizer tube I currently have.
    Turned a 20min job into a 2min job...thanks!
  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,831Member
    Thanks Rob. In reference to the pump combo, I would err on the side of caution. I've have a number of these out of the box fail in the last few months. They only list 7 or 8 ft lift ability and in this one's case it was 3 ft and it failed after a few month's in service. I've had other's fail in a day or two... If you go with it just keep an eye on it and listen for odd noises.. I'm hoping it was just a bad couple I ended up with..
  • unclejohnunclejohn Posts: 1,289Member
    Every thing is piped fine. If and when you use your second zone simply add a tee to your supply and move your flanges their and keep your existing tap for your return and cap the old supply.
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Posts: 1,119Member
    lchmb said:

    Thanks Rob. In reference to the pump combo, I would err on the side of caution. I've have a number of these out of the box fail in the last few months. They only lift 7 or 8 ft lift ability and in this one's case it was 3 ft and it failed after a few month's in service. I've had other's fail in a day or two... If you go with it just keep an eye on it and listen for odd noises.. I'm hoping it was just a bad couple I ended up with..

    Thanks for the heads-up on the pump!
    I have two of their Sanivite under sink pumps- they have proven extremely reliable over 10+ yrs. Surprised to hear about this unit failing.
    Will test it for flow and head prior to install. I'll find a plastic pan to sit it in so if it does fail it won't spill out on the floor.
    Guess I'll save the old gravity fed neutralizer tube just in case!

    Thanks again for the info!!
  • HVACguyinMEHVACguyinME Posts: 23Member
    > @unclejohn said:
    > Every thing is piped fine. If and when you use your second zone simply add a tee to your supply and move your flanges their and keep your existing tap for your return and cap the old supply.

    Actually, the first boiler is piped WRONG. Thepre-made manifold that comes off the boiler is the primary loop. The “secondary” loop has NO circ to push water around. So the zone will circulate on itself, and the same thing with the boiler.

    @lchmb nice install!
  • unclejohnunclejohn Posts: 1,289Member
    edited February 20
    @HVACguyinME That boiler has a pump inside the cabinet. Both pumps will run at the same time so you will get flow. Or you could just cut the pipe between the tees at the boiler and cap. But like the man said its working.
  • kcoppkcopp Posts: 3,090Member
    I think any flow he is getting is by chance. Certainly its not optimal. There are plenty of times where we see things and ask.....How is that working?
  • unclejohnunclejohn Posts: 1,289Member
    The amazing thing about hot water systems is that they seem to want to work no matter how it's done.
  • unclejohnunclejohn Posts: 1,289Member
    The more you look the more you see. Like why did the installer use a flange before the air separator? Was he going to put a pump their? If he was he would be pumping towards the tank. Maybe he decided that it would work with both pumps on at the same time. Again not the best way but a way.
  • kcoppkcopp Posts: 3,090Member
    unclejohn said:

    The more you look the more you see. Like why did the installer use a flange before the air separator? Was he going to put a pump their? If he was he would be pumping towards the tank. Maybe he decided that it would work with both pumps on at the same time. Again not the best way but a way.

    That is a Watts set up.
    That is actually installed "backwards".
    They make that so the circ pump can be attached directly to that and pump away from there.
  • kcoppkcopp Posts: 3,090Member
    Here is a classic example... TT challenger I worked on today. Piped in a new indirect. Not my boiler install. This is the cousin to the IBC-HC. Supply and return are crossed. Supply should turn and go left. Somehow the heat works and has for 4 years. Not an efficient set up.
  • HVACguyinMEHVACguyinME Posts: 23Member
    @unclejohn I know these boilers inside and out. I’ve installed a lot of them. I understand it has an internal pump. So if you look at the header under the boiler with the closely spaced tee’s, that is the “primary” loop. And that is how IBC sells those pre-made manifolds, as the primary. The big “loop” is considered the secondary loop. Now you have your zones tied off of that, with closely spaced tee’s. You have nothing to push the water around the secondary loop. Your boiler pump is going to push down the left pipe, and right back up the right pipe, short cycling the boiler. Then your zone pump is going to push up into the zone and right back out and back into the zone pump. There is no pump to push around the loop of the secondary, making this piped completely WRONG! Essentially this system really has two primary loops, one with a circ and one without.
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