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High temp fin tube and Mod/con......

Solid_Fuel_Man
Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
Was having a rather "heated" conversation with my favorite landlord about his son's house.

Seems his son had an oil scorched air that we recently diagnosed with rotted HX, they are mid construction on a two story addition which will effectively double the floor space. There is a radiant slab in this new addition, so hydronic is the answer.

Now with a dead scorched air setup and an archaic Lennox wood/coal furnace heating the place now. He wants me to install baseboard in the old house and a Viessmann 200. Try as I might I couldn't talk him into the real-world payback of a true low temp system with panel rads to go along with the radiant slab. I was also telling him the second story of this new addition would work well with ultrafin, but again he wants baseboard....

As some of you know, I am very familiar with large commercial propane systems with power burners and cast iron high temp systems. If I were to install this setup as he wants with as many feet of baseboard as he will "allow" how much condensation will he really get?

Am I way off base for suggesting panel rads and a mid temp dry system like ultrafin? My calculated heatloss for the old house if 40,000btu, the new addition is yet to be determined as I have no idea how it will actually be insulated, kind of a wild card this guy.....
Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!

Comments

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 3,819
    Add more baseboard and or add higher output baseboard to get the closer to condensing numbers.
    You can always walk away from the job....
    DZoro
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    He is related...... and has well over 100 units, so we have a mutual agreement of sorts.....
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • psb75
    psb75 Member Posts: 467
    There are panel units that are configured much like basebd. Runtal is one co. These are true radiant emitters unlike fin-tube.
    Solid_Fuel_ManZman
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    If he's set on baseboard... consider cast iron BaseRay or GovBoard.
    The mod-cons love all that mass, and they're more radiant vs. convectors at low condensing temps so they radiate wonderful "old school" warmth by heating objects/bodies in the room vs. just heating the air like fin-tube. They also heat up slowly and bleed off heat slowly after the ch pump has stopped... both big pluses with mod-cons.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited December 2017
    Give smiths heating edge a look to get the most out of the mod/con. Look carefully at their output charts, flow rates,and piping. Very efficient.

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    as a comparison.

  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    In his mind it's the cost factor.... trip over a $20 the reach that $1 scenario. Even when I told him it will only cost more in the long run. I will check to see if my local suppliers carry heating edge. I was looking at the Runtel units on supply house.com he is way too concerned with upfront cost.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Brewbeer
    Brewbeer Member Posts: 616
    edited December 2017
    With careful designing, it is possible to install a low temp baseboard system that will work at radiant temperatures. My system (linked in my sig) runs at 100F supply when it is 35F outside. This morning it was 13F, and the supply water temp was 117F to the baseboards.

    I looked at the Smith's Enviro baseboard when I was designing my system. I ended up using Sterling's Heat Trim Plus (HTP) baseboard. Sterling's HTP output numbers are 90% of the Smith's (with the Smith piped top supply/bottom return or vice versa). Even with the Smith's piped with two supplies, the Sterling HTP is 75% of the rated output of the Smith's. The deciding factor for me was the material costs for the Sterling HTP baseboards was 40% of the material costs per foot of the Smith's.
    Hydronics inspired homeowner with self-designed high efficiency low temperature baseboard system and professionally installed mod-con boiler with indirect DHW. My system design thread: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385
    System Photo: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/79/451e1f19a1e5b345e0951fbe1ff6ca.jpg
    Gordy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited December 2017

    In his mind it's the cost factor.... trip over a $20 the reach that $1 scenario. Even when I told him it will only cost more in the long run. I will check to see if my local suppliers carry heating edge. I was looking at the Runtel units on supply house.com he is way too concerned with upfront cost.


    He is worried about upfront costs, and wants a viessmann 200 doesn’t want to get all the can offer him? Offer the uft at considerably less cost.

    Bring the water to the horse. Seems you could offer way more fintube than Smith to get water temps down. Or give him 170awt fintube lengths, or almost half the Smith at 170.double supply of course. Or the sterling.


  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited December 2017
    Sounds however a customer like that is give them what they want if they don’t want to listen. He could save a bunch up front by just going ci. Then you could live with yourself better than wasting a top notch mod/con on a 170 awt system.

    Be careful the v 200 won’t give you 170awt . More like 155 design around that.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Cheapest would be to use regular Fine-line 30 and just double the length in each room that you would normally install for 170F AWT. As long as he's still in construction that shouldn't be impossible. Only use the more expensive HE2, etc... where he can't run 2x length of Fine-line 30.

    8ft Fine-Line 30 @ 170F AWT = 4,080 BTU's
    16ft Fine-Line 30 @ 130F AWT = 4,160 BTU's
    DZoro
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    The viessmann 200 can only manage 165 output temps. So an awt of 170 from that boiler is not doable. You must design your emitters accordingly.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Part of the design hurdle when using baseboard emitters is being intuitive as to how much “usable”wall space you have that the occupants won’t use. The longer you have to make baseboard to fit your design criteria the higher the odds your usable space becomes the occupants also for all their prize possessions.

    Far better to design with shorter higher output well placed baseboards, that elude output blockages. Than to design around cheaper complete exterior perimeter lengths In which could result in deficient room temps that lead to call backs, and the installer left to tell the owners they can’t put their prized possessions in front of the emitters which cover 1,2, or 3 exterior walls to get lower awt.

    Panel rads elude blockage because it’s obvious that is the emitter, and it’s location can be more easily thought out to prevent output blockage.

    Using a shorter higher output baseboard such as upper examples allows for this also. Murphy’s law will always favor where ever you put the emitter that’s the spot someone else wants to put something to block it. Decrease the area you use decreases those chances.


    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    You're fighting a losing battle, if he has a death-grip on every nickel. There's no sense in putting a Viessmann in that will run 85%. You might as well save him some more money and put in a proper cast-iron system. You can lead a horse to water...........
    kcoppSolid_Fuel_Man
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    He already has the 200.... I'm not in charge of that, which is why I'm barking up this tree. But I've given up the battle.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514

    He already has the 200.... I'm not in charge of that, which is why I'm barking up this tree. But I've given up the battle.

    Brilliant purchase for a penny pincher. SMDH........You may have an argument if he understands the limiting output temp of the 200 for allowing you to get more of, or higher output emitter into the system.


  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,304
    I'm actually getting pricing together on the sterling heatrim plus for presentation tomorrow. I guess I like the challenge of the numbers and the eloquent persuasion needed for this guy to make the right choice.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,428
    edited December 2017
    Proper design for the Vitodens would size the baseboard for a 140 degree AWT. As shown above, it would double the size of the element required. That's a very good reason to use wall panel rads, they take up 1/4 of the length and come in 4 heights. They also should be sized for 140 degree AWT. Then the system is very efficient and made for a condensing load. Besides, baseboard is ugly.
    GordykcoppSolid_Fuel_ManCanucker
  • rbeck
    rbeck Member Posts: 56
    I got way past a that argument A long time ago. Don't stumble over condensing and operating at 170f to 180f and reducing boiler efficiency. First off the high temp is only in really cold temps which is a small percentage of the entire heating season from mid fall to early spring while utilizing ODR.
    Secondly there is much more fuel savings from modulation then you could save with condensing. 60% plus of the season you are modulated back more than likely to 50% or less of input.
    Think about it, the difference between 87% and 95% operating efficiency is about 8% difference. On a $800 annual fuel bill the difference is $64. With modulation and ODR that figure is even less.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    As @Solid_Fuel_Man , @Paul Pollets, and I have pointed out. The boiler has been chosen already. There are limiting factors with output temps this boiler has. So you need to design the emitters around them. 170 awt is out of the question. You need to have enough emitter to cover design days regardless of how little they happen in the heating season.

    I personally hate baseboard also. However the cheap sees it as cheap emitter.

    I let go of panel rads because early on the owner shot them down. However hopefully some good will come from the owners own boiler selection that he decided to buy. It gives @Solid_Fuel_Man some factual basis to argue the emitter end so hopefully this viessmann is utilized to its full potential.

    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170

    Besides, baseboard is ugly.

    Ugly is in the eye of the beholder. ;-) As someone who has almost 200 feet of it I actually love mine and would never go for panel rads because the baseboard aesthetic works beautifully in my traditional colonial and blends perfectly with the base moulding. I beefed up the base to the same profile as the heating and it literally fades into the trim. It's never interfered in furniture placement or with window treatments. I have yet to see any panel rad designs that I didn't think were ugly as sin and akin to wall warts. *shudders*
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Sorry @gschallert , I too fail to find any elegance in baseboard emitters. It gives homes a commercial building atmosphere. Just my opinion though. If you like them that's great.